Anonymous wrote:So it is no longer acceptable for parents to assume that their children will marry someone of the opposite gender, presuming that the children do not currently show signs of homosexuality?

You may assume whatever you want. Just keep in mind that your assumption may turn out to be false.

(I am wondering what "signs of homosexuality" are.)

I'm a pretty big believer in addressing anxiety early on. I also think that a child who continues to be gender nonconforming may encounter some stressful situations as they grow up and enter adolescence, and may benefit from some extra resilience. So, I might err on the side of getting intervention for the anxiety in the form of counseling, and I would probably seek out someone who had expertise in gender, just to avoid the possibility of them confusing the anxiety which sounds like a mild problem, and the gender nonconformism, which shouldn't be seen as problematic.

Anonymous wrote:So it is no longer acceptable for parents to assume that their children will marry someone of the opposite gender, presuming that the children do not currently show signs of homosexuality?

No, just like it's not acceptable for parents to assume their children will marry someone of the same gender, presuming that their children do not currently show signs of heterosexuality.

OP, have you heard of the book Far From The Tree, about conditions where kids are different from their parents (like deafness, autism, transgender)? I just finished it the other day. Based on the transgender chapter in that book--your kid is not transgender. He sounds like a good kid who's forging a path that's tough in our culture. Support, don't pathologize.

Anonymous wrote:So it is no longer acceptable for parents to assume that their children will marry someone of the opposite gender, presuming that the children do not currently show signs of homosexuality?

It's not about "acceptable." Your kid is going to be what they are going to be whether you accept them or not, whether they know about same-sex marriage or not. All that's up to you is whether or not they'll feel OK with who they are, or whether your disapproval will make them feel like a failure. Is it more important that your child be straight or be happy?

OP, I would not take him to a therapist at this point. You said he's happy, so I would just let that be. You can encourage him to make his own decisions about the stuff he likes. I always tell my kids that there are always going to be people that disagree with them, and there's usually going to be someone that wants to put them down, but you can't let that run your life. If you take him to a therapist, I think he'll conclude there's something wrong with it. To the contrary, I think it's great that he thinks for himself. A lot of these gender assignments are totally arbitrary (like "pink" for girls -- it used to be that "blue" was for girls, after the Virgin Mary's traditional dress).

Just keep an eye on it, and see if he starts to be anxious or upset -- then you can worry about it. In a couple of years, the kids are going to start gender-segregating a little more -- I'd just keep an eye on it to make sure that he still has a couple good friends, of either gender, and doesn't end up shut out of both groups. Some gender neutral activities -- like chess or music -- are not a bad idea, as they will allow him to make friends in a less gendered environment.

So it is no longer acceptable for parents to assume that their children will marry someone of the opposite gender, presuming that the children do not currently show signs of homosexuality?

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Anonymous wrote: We are aware he may be gay, but refuse to label our child. As for now he's just DS.

He's seven. And you are labeling him.

When I was six, I wanted to dress like Daddy. I wore brown corduroys and played with trucks. I didn't even own dolls.

I'm now 36, straight, and married to a man. That kind of behavior in a child likely means nothing.

You're really reaching. I suspect this is just another case of parents wanting to feel there is something "special" about their child.

Yes, OP is labeling the child as "possibly gay". I don't perceive that as a problem. Every seven-year-old child is possibly gay (as well as possibly not-gay).

OP is also labeling the child as "gender non-conforming", which seems to me an accurate description of "a very happy boy, who just enjoys things that are stereotypically feminine".

Right, so why label a child as possibly gay? Why introduce that thought into their head? Why not just let things go where they go?

It's only a problem if you think being gay is wrong, and OP specifically asked folks to refrain from homophobia on this thread. I introduce the idea to my kids that they might marry a man OR a woman, which won't make them gay but will make them know that I really don't care if they are.

To the OP - I think gender nonconforming is a good way to think about this. It may change with time or it may not, but I do think that getting him into a therapist to work on resiliency might not be the worst idea.

You introduce the idea to your kids that they might marry a man OR a women? Is this the new normal?

Absolutely! We tell our children that boys can marry girls, girls can marry girls, and boys can marry girls. One of my proudest mom moments was when my son corrected his grandmother when she told him boys marry girls. He said, "My mama says that boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls if they want to."

At this point, this is legally accurate. Whether you agree with it or not, our children will grow up with this reality.

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You introduce the idea to your kids that they might marry a man OR a women? Is this the new normal?

No, it's not. It's the new actual reality, for the whole US, since June 26, 2015.

(I'm not the PP you're responding.)

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Anonymous wrote: We are aware he may be gay, but refuse to label our child. As for now he's just DS.

He's seven. And you are labeling him.

When I was six, I wanted to dress like Daddy. I wore brown corduroys and played with trucks. I didn't even own dolls.

I'm now 36, straight, and married to a man. That kind of behavior in a child likely means nothing.

You're really reaching. I suspect this is just another case of parents wanting to feel there is something "special" about their child.

Yes, OP is labeling the child as "possibly gay". I don't perceive that as a problem. Every seven-year-old child is possibly gay (as well as possibly not-gay).

OP is also labeling the child as "gender non-conforming", which seems to me an accurate description of "a very happy boy, who just enjoys things that are stereotypically feminine".

Right, so why label a child as possibly gay? Why introduce that thought into their head? Why not just let things go where they go?

It's only a problem if you think being gay is wrong, and OP specifically asked folks to refrain from homophobia on this thread. I introduce the idea to my kids that they might marry a man OR a woman, which won't make them gay but will make them know that I really don't care if they are.

To the OP - I think gender nonconforming is a good way to think about this. It may change with time or it may not, but I do think that getting him into a therapist to work on resiliency might not be the worst idea.

You introduce the idea to your kids that they might marry a man OR a women? Is this the new normal?

Does he say he was born in the wrong body? Or thinks he's a girl in a boy's body? Or denies that he's a boy or that he should be a boy? Or gets upset or angry if you refer to him as a boy?

I'm no expert, but my understanding of transgender is that it's about core identity -- who a person is -- and a belief that there's a complete disconnect between who the person is and the body they're in. In contrast, it's not about their interests and tastes and whether those conform to current society's beliefs about what's appropriate for boys vs. girls.

You mention your DS's taste in toys. And his friends. To me, this is far from transgender.

As for gender non-conforming, I'm not sure what that means for a seven year old. Our society (including companies that market and sell products) has a lot of ideas about what are "boy things" and what are "girl things." Those ideas are not fixed -- they change with the times, and in my opinion they're getting more bifurcated with each decade. In my experience, there are plenty of seven year olds who don't fit that exact mold. Normal and not worth a second thought as long as the kid is happy and growing etc.

Also, FWIW, I have a second grade DD who wears her brother's clothes (and his friends' hand me downs) and hasn't worn dresses in years. Has always played with more boys than girls, likely because their interests are more aligned (sports, cars, Pokemon, science etc.), though that is changing a bit lately as she's finding more girls with common interests. Probably not a coincidence that this is the age where most of the girls seem to have outgrown princesses and Frozen etc. Anyway, the definition of "gender conforming" is actually pretty broad in my experience.

That said, I know there's a double standard on some level -- tomboy girls are accepted and even applauded in some circles, while the same is not always true for the boy equivalent. But in the end, I fear that's because society still prioritizes stereotypical male behavior over anything deemed female. It sucks, and I hope it changes in our lifetime.

Meanwhile, does this whole discussion remind anyone else of the Dar Williams song, "When I was a Boy"?


http://www.metrolyrics.com/when-i-was-a-boy-lyrics-dar-williams.html

Anonymous wrote:Op my nine year old ds isn't in to sports, plays with stuffed animals, legos, action figures (has owned both "boy and girl" toys), plays with stuff that could be considered feminine, but it never occurred to me to question whether the stuff he played with was "gender conforming" or not. He's my only child so I don't have anything to compare him to, but it never occurred to me that he could be gay or transgender because of how he plays or what he plays with while he is such a young child. He doesn't even care or notice that some of his toys are "girl" toys and neither do his friends. He plays with girls and boys. Is it possible you're overthinking it or letting people influence your thinking? It seems completely crazy to me. Especially since you mentioned that he doesn't insist that he is a girl when he's actually a boy.

+1

Op my nine year old ds isn't in to sports, plays with stuffed animals, legos, action figures (has owned both "boy and girl" toys), plays with stuff that could be considered feminine, but it never occurred to me to question whether the stuff he played with was "gender conforming" or not. He's my only child so I don't have anything to compare him to, but it never occurred to me that he could be gay or transgender because of how he plays or what he plays with while he is such a young child. He doesn't even care or notice that some of his toys are "girl" toys and neither do his friends. He plays with girls and boys. Is it possible you're overthinking it or letting people influence your thinking? It seems completely crazy to me. Especially since you mentioned that he doesn't insist that he is a girl when he's actually a boy.

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No, it's a problem, because like the PP said, EVERY 7 year is is potentially gay (but more than likely straight). Why are we even introducing sexual attraction to a young child, instead of them letting themselves figure it out?

It's also patently ridiculous to think that enjoying "girl" things makes him gender non-conforming or potentially gay.

On the contrary, a boy enjoying "girl" things is basically the definition of gender non-conforming, for boys.

But it's ok for girls to play with Legos, right? That's not gender non-conforming.

Boys are policed a lot harder for gender conformity than girls are. Girls can like sports and be tomboys. It's okay if they hate pink. Boys are teased a lot more if they like My Little Pony or pink toys. Males are policed vigorously by other males for signs they might not be straight and cis.

This. In fact we are at a point where we often praise girls for being gender non confirming and its very rare to see that kind of praise for boys. Girl who is rough and tumble, etc. are often seen as just awesome, boys who are effeminate rarely so. It still stems from the idea that what is traditionally feminine is weak or undesirable. Which hurts girls and women just as much as boys who prefer those things!

OP I think you sound like a conscious mom. I also think at 7 the idea that we are "introducing sexual attraction" is kind of silly. Kids see adults hug or kiss, they understand marriage and many understand "where babies come from". The idea that it isn't introduced already is ridiculous. The problem that can (not WILL but MAY) arise from just "letting them figure it out" when they may not be straight or gender conforming is that since most people are, their perception of themselves as minority or different can quickly internalize as "bad" if there has not been any communication on the topic or it seems like something that needs to be "secret until you are absolutely sure".

Anonymous wrote:

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No, it's a problem, because like the PP said, EVERY 7 year is is potentially gay (but more than likely straight). Why are we even introducing sexual attraction to a young child, instead of them letting themselves figure it out?

It's also patently ridiculous to think that enjoying "girl" things makes him gender non-conforming or potentially gay.

On the contrary, a boy enjoying "girl" things is basically the definition of gender non-conforming, for boys.

But it's ok for girls to play with Legos, right? That's not gender non-conforming.

Boys are policed a lot harder for gender conformity than girls are. Girls can like sports and be tomboys. It's okay if they hate pink. Boys are teased a lot more if they like My Little Pony or pink toys. Males are policed vigorously by other males for signs they might not be straight and cis.