Anonymous
06/18/2015 15:23
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
I respect the legitimacy of victors' justice, of course, but "traitors" is a bridge too far. Whether the Constitution allowed for secession was an open question until it was settled by Justices Sherman and Grant, who put broad swathes of the South to the torch. Not that in some ways they didn't have it coming, of course.
It's not a matter of "victor's justice". When they attacked Fort Sumter, the issue was decided. They went to war against America.
That doesn't make them "traitors," although I would concede it makes them "foolish."
How many ways can you sugar coat an act of war?
Anonymous
06/18/2015 15:15
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
You're right, of course. All discussions should be limited to those that concern the federal government or the state in which you reside.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 15:08
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
I respect the legitimacy of victors' justice, of course, but "traitors" is a bridge too far. Whether the Constitution allowed for secession was an open question until it was settled by Justices Sherman and Grant, who put broad swathes of the South to the torch. Not that in some ways they didn't have it coming, of course.
It's not a matter of "victor's justice". When they attacked Fort Sumter, the issue was decided. They went to war against America.
That doesn't make them "traitors," although I would concede it makes them "foolish."
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:52
Subject: Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.
What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.
A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.
Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:51
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
I respect the legitimacy of victors' justice, of course, but "traitors" is a bridge too far. Whether the Constitution allowed for secession was an open question until it was settled by Justices Sherman and Grant, who put broad swathes of the South to the torch. Not that in some ways they didn't have it coming, of course.
It's not a matter of "victor's justice". When they attacked Fort Sumter, the issue was decided. They went to war against America.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:39
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
I respect the legitimacy of victors' justice, of course, but "traitors" is a bridge too far. Whether the Constitution allowed for secession was an open question until it was settled by Justices Sherman and Grant, who put broad swathes of the South to the torch. Not that in some ways they didn't have it coming, of course.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:38
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
Because... racism.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:28
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
That is a very good question, but not so much for us here in DC but for them down there in SC.
Anyone here from SC who can try to explain the (majority) SC perspective?
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:24
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.[/quote]
we are discussing it because there are still Lost Causers who support their flag.
jsteele
06/18/2015 14:24
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
I agree that all indications suggest that the majority of people living in South Carolina are content to be represented by a flag that was flown by those in armed rebellion against the Government of the United States (i.e. traitors) in defense of slavery. What I don't understand is why that majority doesn't seem to understand why this makes them look like a bunch of racists.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:18
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:11
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:10
Subject: Confederate Battle Flag
So is the Confederate Flag going to fly at Half Staff or nah in commemoration of the shooting?
Anonymous
06/18/2015 14:08
Subject: Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.
What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.
A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.
america didn't consider it a "quest for independence". And since they were Americans, that what counts. I wouldnt expect to consider the revolutionary war a "quest"
jsteele
06/18/2015 14:04
Subject: Re:Confederate Battle Flag
Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.
I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.
Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.
That's the thing. I was castigated in the other thread because a poster claimed that I had inferred that all South Carolinians were racist. I actually had inferred no such thing, but it is true that the State's choice to fly a flag that is widely consider a symbol of racism reflects on all the state's citizens. If South Carolinians don't want to be associated with the flag, they should act to get it removed. If they do want to be associated with the flag, they should accept that racial implications of that association.
That would be very true if the majority of South Carolinians themselves viewed the flag as you do. I don't know if that's the case.
South Carolinians can view the flag in whichever way they want. That will not change the fact that a great many people view the flag as having racial implications. As I mentioned in the other thread, swastikas have many non-racist connotations. But anyone employing a swastika in a non-racist circumstance would be stupid to ignore the wider implications.