I came to this thread because I was combing DCUM for advice for dealing with my 11 yr old DD, who, practically overnight, has gone from a sweet, helpful, happy kid to a jerk who seems mostly unhappy and angry and anxious. She used to verbalize her thoughts and feelings and now she seems... shut down, although she did tell us that she "resents" us for parenting her since she thinks she doesn't need parenting. She also yelled at us for having "too many rules" for her to follow. Once the pain went away, I was frankly perplexed. We are soooo not rule-bound. The stuff she is complaining about are things that I don't even think of as "rules" like 1.) flushing the toilet after you poop and 2.) showering nightly and brushing teeth. Or they are no-brainer rules that, in my view, practically every parent should have like "don't download apps without permission" and "no social media unless one of your parents is allowed as a friend/follower." Or they involve her very minimal chores (pick up your own dirty plate; put your dirty laundry into your hamper). That's it. Life used to seem so simple. She was happy to do her minimal chores to be part of the family/community. She was fine with the e-rules since it meant she got a smart phone. And she seemed to struggle with the personal hygiene stuff (I have never figured our why), but if we reminded her, she was compliant.

Anyway, this whole discussion on validation is very helpful. I can see how it could make some of the recent oppositional conversations I'm having with DD much more positive. But.... well... I just don't get how you're still supposed to teach them values/life skills with this kind of thing? I'm sorry if I sound dumb, but, this example about the homework perplexes me. (The rat one I completely understand. You are expressing empathy in an appropriate way and the child doesn't need any kind of "correction" etc. in that scenario.) But in the other example, let's say you're talking about a child who consistently forgets their homework. They don't have a learning disability or an inability to remember. Let's say you have a good student, above average intelligence and maturity level, and they just don't consistently meet basic expectations? In the example used, it doesn't seem like it's the child's first time forgetting. In fact, it seems like it's a pattern. I feel like it's my job to teach her that consistently forgetting to hand in her homework is a problem that needs to be fixed. I do it as positively as possible. For example, in this example, I would empathize with the embarrassment. But I would definitely, at some point, move to what is being called the "but..." I'd definitely say, kindly, after empathizing, that not turning in the homework is something she needs to get better at and then would try to brainstorm how to do better. I feel like, especially when dealing with tweens (or even younger), that empathy alone isn't effective parenting. How else does my child learn that not flushing the toilet or not turning in homework is not acceptable long-term behavior? Obviously I'm no parenting expert and based on my child's current assessment, I'm failing miserably so I'm asking for advice. But I just can't get it into my head that, after expressing empathy, I'm not allowed to say that "x" is wrong/undesired behavior. And almost every day of fifth grade sadly brought us an opportunity for such a discussion. She picked on other kids. She broke the trust of her friends by telling her secrets. She talked too much to her friends in class that teacher complained to principal. She lied about things. She spent a few days as part of a "club" that doesn't eat lunch so she could be skinnier. I get that I'm lucky that these aren't huge life or death issues but I view them as all moments where a parent is supposed to step in and explain how to be a better friend, a good student, a nice person, or a healthy kid. And how do they learn that when I'm busy avoiding saying any kind of statement about not meeting expectations or about trying better??? I see the therapists weighing in saying "bravo" so I'm feeling like a terrible parent but I don't understand how to do this!

It is very interesting to read this. I've never heard of validation techniques but it's similar to the methods I learned from a psychologist to help my younger child with emotional volatility in play therapy. Tracking and naming emotions, reflecting and such. I will have to keep working on these skills to help my teen daughter I guess.

Can't believe you faced the same rodent death scenario! Glad it was useful and hope you have found other uses for validation--it makes life with teens so much easier.

--Larlat's grandmother

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'll give it a shot. I am sure you know the basics--never validate that which should not be validated (you were right to lie, for example), do not judge but empathize, universalize.

Example 1:

Old me: Why are you in such a bad mood? New me: You seem upset.

DD: I am upset! My teacher called me out in front of the whole class today!

Old me: Why? (Implicit: What did you do wrong?) New me: No wonder you are upset! That sounds so embarrassing!

DD: It wasn't my fault I forgot my homework!

Old me: Again? How many times have I told you to put your homework in the folder in your back pack as soon as you have finished it? New me: Oh! You must have been so frustrated you forgot it.

DD: I was. I keep trying so hard to remember and it is so unfair that the teacher said something in front of everyone.

Old me: Trying to isn't enough--what do you expect when you don't follow the rules? New me: I can't imagine how embarrassing it must have been to have that said in front of everyone, especially when you are trying so hard. Anyone would be upset at that.

DD: I guess I have to try harder.

Old me: Indeed you do or it is just going to get worse. New me: Maybe we need to come up with a better way for you to remember. (Brainstorming follows.)

Example 2 (more or less true as I remember it). This was early on in my foray into validation and made me aware of just how hard validating can be.

DD wakes me up at three in the morning to tell me her pet rat, which she knows I loathe, has died.

DD: Mommy, Larlat died!

Inward me: Thank God! Outward me, struggling to be validating in half awake stage: Are you sure? Larlat is too young to die.

DD: I'm sure, she's not moving and feels stiff.

Inward me: We better get rid of her immediately. Outward me: Oh! Poor Larlat! She was such a good rat, you must be so upset--you loved her so much!

DD: I did Mommy, I am so sad.

Inward me: Well I'm not--good riddance. Outward me: (Big hug and kiss.) Of course you are--anyone would be upset to have their pet die like that in the middle of the night.

DD: I am going to miss Larlat so much!

Inward me: Well I certainly won't. Outward me: I am so sorry, I know you'll miss her. She didn't deserve to die--she never did anything to hurt anyone.

DD: Mommy, can help me bury her?

Inward me: Yuck! Do I have to, can't we just call animal control or something? Outward me: Of course, she deserves a nice funeral. Maybe we can plan one in the morning.

DD: Yes--I'll invite my friends over who knew Larlat. I'll put her in a box for now and go to sleep. I'm so tired.

Inward me: So am I! Who wants to be woken up at three in the morning? Outward me: (Big hug and kiss again.) Okay, you really need some sleep after everything you and Larlat have been through and we'll have a big today tomorrow with her funeral.

I had to smile when I saw this thread revived. I actually remember and execute quite well the pet scenario described when my child's beloved pet mouse died. I hated that thing and it creeped me out and I totally regretted ever agreeing so when it unexpectedly died I really wanted to rejoice. so to whoever posted the above - thanks!!! it made a huge difference in my and my grieving child's time of need

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'll give it a shot. I am sure you know the basics--never validate that which should not be validated (you were right to lie, for example), do not judge but empathize, universalize.

Example 1:

Old me: Why are you in such a bad mood? New me: You seem upset.

DD: I am upset! My teacher called me out in front of the whole class today!

Old me: Why? (Implicit: What did you do wrong?) New me: No wonder you are upset! That sounds so embarrassing!

DD: It wasn't my fault I forgot my homework!

Old me: Again? How many times have I told you to put your homework in the folder in your back pack as soon as you have finished it? New me: Oh! You must have been so frustrated you forgot it.

DD: I was. I keep trying so hard to remember and it is so unfair that the teacher said something in front of everyone.

Old me: Trying to isn't enough--what do you expect when you don't follow the rules? New me: I can't imagine how embarrassing it must have been to have that said in front of everyone, especially when you are trying so hard. Anyone would be upset at that.

DD: I guess I have to try harder.

Old me: Indeed you do or it is just going to get worse. New me: Maybe we need to come up with a better way for you to remember. (Brainstorming follows.)

Example 2 (more or less true as I remember it). This was early on in my foray into validation and made me aware of just how hard validating can be.

DD wakes me up at three in the morning to tell me her pet rat, which she knows I loathe, has died.

DD: Mommy, Larlat died!

Inward me: Thank God! Outward me, struggling to be validating in half awake stage: Are you sure? Larlat is too young to die.

DD: I'm sure, she's not moving and feels stiff.

Inward me: We better get rid of her immediately. Outward me: Oh! Poor Larlat! She was such a good rat, you must be so upset--you loved her so much!

DD: I did Mommy, I am so sad.

Inward me: Well I'm not--good riddance. Outward me: (Big hug and kiss.) Of course you are--anyone would be upset to have their pet die like that in the middle of the night.

DD: I am going to miss Larlat so much!

Inward me: Well I certainly won't. Outward me: I am so sorry, I know you'll miss her. She didn't deserve to die--she never did anything to hurt anyone.

DD: Mommy, can help me bury her?

Inward me: Yuck! Do I have to, can't we just call animal control or something? Outward me: Of course, she deserves a nice funeral. Maybe we can plan one in the morning.

DD: Yes--I'll invite my friends over who knew Larlat. I'll put her in a box for now and go to sleep. I'm so tired.

Inward me: So am I! Who wants to be woken up at three in the morning? Outward me: (Big hug and kiss again.) Okay, you really need some sleep after everything you and Larlat have been through and we'll have a big today tomorrow with her funeral.

YOU, my friend, are just awesome. I am a therapist and if all of my clients were like you I would be out of a job. This is so amazing I may have to print it out and read it when I'm trying to give people replacement words.

And your daughter is lucky to have you.

LOL, I am a therapist too and I was thinking the same thing! I am going to save this to use with my patients and yes, you are putting us therapists out of a job!

I teach validation therapy to my clients and I think that the examples used were excellent! The broader term of what is being accomplished is "radical empathy" which means that you are validating someone's experience, even if you don't have the same feelings.

It's really about removing ourselves from the equation and focusing just on what the other person is experiencing.

It works for relationships with husbands, too!

Anonymous wrote:Someone pointed to this thread in another thread, and I have to say its one of the most helpful things I've seen on this website. If you're still around, pp, thanks for the example dialogue!

PP here. You are most welcome. Validation is such a powerful yet little know tool for dealing with your kids. It so totally turned around my relationship with my DD that I have become something of a validation evangelist. It really can work!

Someone pointed to this thread in another thread, and I have to say its one of the most helpful things I've seen on this website. If you're still around, pp, thanks for the example dialogue!

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'll give it a shot. I am sure you know the basics--never validate that which should not be validated (you were right to lie, for example), do not judge but empathize, universalize.

Example 1:

Old me: Why are you in such a bad mood? New me: You seem upset.

DD: I am upset! My teacher called me out in front of the whole class today!

Old me: Why? (Implicit: What did you do wrong?) New me: No wonder you are upset! That sounds so embarrassing!

DD: It wasn't my fault I forgot my homework!

Old me: Again? How many times have I told you to put your homework in the folder in your back pack as soon as you have finished it? New me: Oh! You must have been so frustrated you forgot it.

DD: I was. I keep trying so hard to remember and it is so unfair that the teacher said something in front of everyone.

Old me: Trying to isn't enough--what do you expect when you don't follow the rules? New me: I can't imagine how embarrassing it must have been to have that said in front of everyone, especially when you are trying so hard. Anyone would be upset at that.

DD: I guess I have to try harder.

Old me: Indeed you do or it is just going to get worse. New me: Maybe we need to come up with a better way for you to remember. (Brainstorming follows.)

Example 2 (more or less true as I remember it). This was early on in my foray into validation and made me aware of just how hard validating can be.

DD wakes me up at three in the morning to tell me her pet rat, which she knows I loathe, has died.

DD: Mommy, Larlat died!

Inward me: Thank God! Outward me, struggling to be validating in half awake stage: Are you sure? Larlat is too young to die.

DD: I'm sure, she's not moving and feels stiff.

Inward me: We better get rid of her immediately. Outward me: Oh! Poor Larlat! She was such a good rat, you must be so upset--you loved her so much!

DD: I did Mommy, I am so sad.

Inward me: Well I'm not--good riddance. Outward me: (Big hug and kiss.) Of course you are--anyone would be upset to have their pet die like that in the middle of the night.

DD: I am going to miss Larlat so much!

Inward me: Well I certainly won't. Outward me: I am so sorry, I know you'll miss her. She didn't deserve to die--she never did anything to hurt anyone.

DD: Mommy, can help me bury her?

Inward me: Yuck! Do I have to, can't we just call animal control or something? Outward me: Of course, she deserves a nice funeral. Maybe we can plan one in the morning.

DD: Yes--I'll invite my friends over who knew Larlat. I'll put her in a box for now and go to sleep. I'm so tired.

Inward me: So am I! Who wants to be woken up at three in the morning? Outward me: (Big hug and kiss again.) Okay, you really need some sleep after everything you and Larlat have been through and we'll have a big today tomorrow with her funeral.

YOU, my friend, are just awesome. I am a therapist and if all of my clients were like you I would be out of a job. This is so amazing I may have to print it out and read it when I'm trying to give people replacement words.

And your daughter is lucky to have you.

My DD was cutting too and spent time in residentiall treatment center on the west coast. The DBT therapy helped her tremendously and our communication too. She still sees her therapist via Skype. I would try the Ross center for anxiety and ask if there is anyone there who specializes in DBT- DD also sees a psychiatrist there and they have many therapists who specialize with teens. Good luck and hugs to you

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks so much for the examples. Dh and I have been practicing validation to improve our communication, but it makes so much sense to extend that onto the kids. I have one tween that is extremely oppositional. Life with him can be so hard. I'm going to start practicing this with him.

I've always thought that he has some level of anxiety that must be causing all of his outbursts, but in the neuropysch testing we did a few years ago they said they didn't see it. He is also a really extroverted kid and doesn't show sad emotions much at all either. Never has actually.

Anyway, thanks for the examples too, they really help!

OP here, if you come back, I would like to know more about your extrovert - DS doesn't show lots of sad emotions, is usually quite happy but has that teen anger now he's well into puberty. The self-harm just seems so unlike him. I didn't even realize boys did this sort of thing. We have discovered he feels huge pressure from adults/teachers who expect him to be as mature as he sounds/acts/looks but he is really just 13. He indicates he's had trouble managing their expectations plus some of them (teachers etc) sound just plain mean.