Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 18:42     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.


Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...


NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.


This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.


Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?


First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.


Jeff is very free with telling the forum the general locations of people who he disagrees with. I am curious as to whether Muslima lives in the DC area, or even in the USA. I highly doubt it. I've asked her and she's very cagey about her answers.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 18:40     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.


Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...


NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.


This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.


Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?


Sounds lovely

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/09/the-facts-and-a-few-myths-about-saudi-arabia-and-human-rights/
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 17:58     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.


Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...


NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.


This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.


Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?


First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.


Are we talking about Saudi women living in the US? Because that's a whole different ballgame if we are comparing American born women in the US and Saudi born women in the US.


I'm talking about Saudi women in Saudi Arabia. There is no denying that Saudi society is sexist and I have stated that on the opening post. The point I was raising was that the women described in the article have a life that parallels Saudi culture a lot, however theirs is seen as acceptable while the other is not


Do the Saudi women tolerate their husbands having mistresses?
dancingsunflowers06
Post 05/19/2015 17:49     Subject: Re:Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Wow, that is interesting. We live in a diverse society these days. I imagine that these women in the article are a very small minority here in the states. Thanks for sharing.

Blessings,
mommato2lilmonkeys
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 16:22     Subject: Re:Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Anonymous wrote:Muslima, this is what you wrote in your OP.
"However, when women in other parts of the world make these same choices, they are automatically labeled as brainwashed and submissive."

I highlighted the bolded.

You are saying that the women in Saudi have a choice. That's is what is being contested by these other posts and you are acting completely bewildered as to why no one agrees with you... again.



Exactly! Everyone in this thread has been telling Muslima that no, Saudi women in Saudi Arabia do not have a choice[ in sex-segregation or gender roles or anything at all about their lifestyle. It is dictated to them by the state. They aren't obeying their whims and fancies, they are obeying the law.

This is why I said the OP is a shit-stirring idiot.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:37     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Hey, I like you, Muslima!

Misogyny is worldwide, and takes on different cultural aspects in different parts of the world. Even here women are paid less than men for the same jobs. There is an important question of degree, though. Theoretically, Western laws are much more women-friendly than Saudi laws. In practice, there are significant differences as well. But if you're talking about like-minded people hanging out together (women shopping and taking care of children for ex), then that is in response to a deeper, more primal, imperative than anything you could stamp out by a law. Women are in general more social, affectionate and gregarious than men. There are well-researched differences in brains.


I agree with you that western laws are way more friendly and gender neutral than Saudi laws. The point I was trying to make was more on cultural acceptance and norms. The Social life of a rich segregated Saudi woman is very similar to that of the women described in the article. Yes, the western woman might have access to more laws, "freedom" ect but at the end of the day as the author pointed: "The worldwide ethnographic data is clear: The more stratified and hierarchical the society, and the more sex segregated, the lower the status of women." . The gender segregation and power relations in both the lives of these women and Saudi women are very similar, however the western women are seen as normal because they chose this lifestyle while no Saudi woman would choose to live the way they do.


I think you're thinking that these UES women are seen as a "lower status". I know some people who run in the circles described in that article. Those women aren't seen as a lower status at all.
Muslima
Post 05/19/2015 15:36     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Anonymous wrote:Hey, I like you, Muslima!

Misogyny is worldwide, and takes on different cultural aspects in different parts of the world. Even here women are paid less than men for the same jobs. There is an important question of degree, though. Theoretically, Western laws are much more women-friendly than Saudi laws. In practice, there are significant differences as well. But if you're talking about like-minded people hanging out together (women shopping and taking care of children for ex), then that is in response to a deeper, more primal, imperative than anything you could stamp out by a law. Women are in general more social, affectionate and gregarious than men. There are well-researched differences in brains.


I agree with you that western laws are way more friendly and gender neutral than Saudi laws. The point I was trying to make was more on cultural acceptance and norms. The Social life of a rich segregated Saudi woman is very similar to that of the women described in the article. Yes, the western woman might have access to more laws, "freedom" ect but at the end of the day as the author pointed: "The worldwide ethnographic data is clear: The more stratified and hierarchical the society, and the more sex segregated, the lower the status of women." . The gender segregation and power relations in both the lives of these women and Saudi women are very similar, however the western women are seen as normal because they chose this lifestyle while no Saudi woman would choose to live the way they do.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:28     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
What I don't think you're getting (or refusing to get) is that the women described in the article are freely choosing to live their lives like that. They are not doing so because it is a socially acceptable thing to do (in fact I think you'll find many who think its the opposite). They are not doing it because their husbands want them to behave like that. They are doing it because THEY want to do it. Now, I agree with you that there are similarities in respect to having gender specific parties and relying on their husbands for money and to provide their lifestyles, but to argue that they are similar is just stupid.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:28     Subject: Re:Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Muslima, this is what you wrote in your OP.
"However, when women in other parts of the world make these same choices, they are automatically labeled as brainwashed and submissive."

I highlighted the bolded.

You are saying that the women in Saudi have a choice. That's is what is being contested by these other posts and you are acting completely bewildered as to why no one agrees with you... again.

Muslima
Post 05/19/2015 15:23     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Saudi women living in the U.S. are free to be as different as they wish and to practice their religion to the degree they with (within the common law of the people in the U.S.).

Before there was a U.S., religious pilgrims came here fleeing oppression in Europe; we celebrate them yearly at Thanksgiving.

Be as modest as you want and pray as often as you like. We encourage it in fact. Diversity is our strength.

But we also value tolerance. We don't believe that prohibiting women from driving is tolerant. We don't believe in having Saudi-style religious police to enforce sharia. We tolerate people of all faiths, and people of no faith. And we tolerate freedom of expression - even offensive speech like burning our flag or burning a Koran. It is protected speech.

I'm not convinced you've managed to reconcile the freedoms we give you with the tolerance we require as Americans.


+1

And I'm a Muslim-American from a very modern Muslim-American family. I have no idea what the purpose of OP's thread is. Comparing Saudi women's circumstances with the circumstances of American women is a ridiculous equivalence. OP, you know that a lot of Middle-Eastern countries think the Saudis are batshit crazy, don't you?


I doubt you read my post. I never said Saudi Arabia was the epitome of freedom, equality and women's Paradise. If anything, I have stated it was misogynistic and not the Issue at debate. Where I wanted to bring this conversation was more on the choices of the women described in the article, but everyone keeps going back to how unfairly women are treated in KSA which is not what I'm debating since I agree with that view.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:21     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Hey, I like you, Muslima!

Misogyny is worldwide, and takes on different cultural aspects in different parts of the world. Even here women are paid less than men for the same jobs. There is an important question of degree, though. Theoretically, Western laws are much more women-friendly than Saudi laws. In practice, there are significant differences as well. But if you're talking about like-minded people hanging out together (women shopping and taking care of children for ex), then that is in response to a deeper, more primal, imperative than anything you could stamp out by a law. Women are in general more social, affectionate and gregarious than men. There are well-researched differences in brains.

Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:20     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.


Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...


It's not a choice, if you can't leave it when you want.

Women on the Upper East Side can choose to go back to work and to leave their husbands and to do whatever they want. They can divorce their husbands and move to Paris if that's what they want. They can get a sex change operation if that's what they want. They can move in with another man if that's what they want. They can do anything they want, without the permission of anyone else.

Saudi women can't do anything of the sort. They have no choices. Don't mistake contentment with freedom. Some people are happy in slavery. That doesn't mean they are free.
Muslima
Post 05/19/2015 15:19     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.


Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...


NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.


This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.


Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?


First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.


Are we talking about Saudi women living in the US? Because that's a whole different ballgame if we are comparing American born women in the US and Saudi born women in the US.


I'm talking about Saudi women in Saudi Arabia. There is no denying that Saudi society is sexist and I have stated that on the opening post. The point I was raising was that the women described in the article have a life that parallels Saudi culture a lot, however theirs is seen as acceptable while the other is not
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:17     Subject: Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
My dear friend is a lawyer of Arab origin, and she is from the Bahrain - a quite liberal Arab country. She was laughing when she told me about her experiences when her law firm sent her to Saudi Arabia to work with a Saudi client. She had like never worn an abaya before, she sometimes couldn't use the toilet because there wasn't a ladies' room in a building, and she hated being veiled and unable to do anything on her own.

Most educated Arab people will tell you Saudi Arabia is screwed up. I have lots of Arab friends, none of them think Saudi's oppressive laws are something that should be defended.
Anonymous
Post 05/19/2015 15:17     Subject: Re:Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side
Blaming the multitude of issues against women in Saudi on tribalism within one the wealthiest countries in the world that has the power and money to fund madrassas worldwide and influence even the American gov't is a big, blaring, neon scapegoat.

As you said, Saudi women are educated, the men are educated. Yet the level of misogyny that is excused by saying it stems from tribal issues is ridiculous.

I worked in the medical field and saw how the choices in health care these women receive here in America is dictated by the husband. And yes, these are educated people.

There is no comparison between the lifestyle of a Saudi women and an American women and the fact that you are grasping at this really poorly written article to try to prove any similarity shows you're desperate to to gloss over the inequalities.