Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 16:31     Subject: Re:Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
We went to the science and engineering convention last year and learned that there are a shortage of welders in the U.S. Entry level welders earn app $65k per year. Specialized welders who can pass security clearances and work navy yards and other shipyards make $100k or more. If I had a child who wasn't college bound, I would be pushing welding.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 16:11     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:My nephew is doing something like that, he dropped out of the college prep type program at his high school and is taking a morning of vocational classes at a separate center. His grandparents and I were horrified at first, since it is just expected that you at *least* to undergrad in our family, but we felt that 1. his parents are smart people, and know what they're doing, and 2. nephew just wasn't going to be cut out for college. He was really struggling in class and it was seriously impacting his self esteem. He will likely go to a 2 year technical college right after school. The US does need tradesmen and they are good paying jobs.


My DH took the opposite road -- he was on the vocation track in HS (like everyone in his family). As part of that he was working in a TV/radio repair job. That got him interested in how the things he was fixing were designed and built so he ended up applying to college and got a degree in electrical engineering. I wish more kids were exposed to that kind of hands-on work regardless of their college expectations. It can open your eyes to lots of possibilities.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 15:53     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
My nephew is doing something like that, he dropped out of the college prep type program at his high school and is taking a morning of vocational classes at a separate center. His grandparents and I were horrified at first, since it is just expected that you at *least* to undergrad in our family, but we felt that 1. his parents are smart people, and know what they're doing, and 2. nephew just wasn't going to be cut out for college. He was really struggling in class and it was seriously impacting his self esteem. He will likely go to a 2 year technical college right after school. The US does need tradesmen and they are good paying jobs.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 15:12     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:Lets take this a step further.

We also need people to work as cashiers and gas station attendants, yet those jobs are looked down upon and even some people who are unemployed won't consider that type of work. It doesn't make a person worth less to have a job that requires no education or experience. Society however, has trained us to think we needed to be more.


This. We need to pay these people more. If they were paid a living wage, then it would be a viable option for my kid. I don't care what career path my kid chooses, but he needs to be able to support himself.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 14:34     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:I have no issue with my child opting for a vocational school if he can't keep up with college. Not everyone is suited to pursue a highly academic career, so regardless of what parents may want or not want, some kids will not grow up doctors and lawyers. Therefore, yes, I believe the vocational option is vitally important. I do want my kid to be a freaking genius, but that is largly out of my control.


I think this is the biggest problem. The idea that vocational school is something you do if you can't do college. I think a lot of college kids would fail out of vocational schools.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 14:25     Subject: Re:Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Interesting discussion! In some ways, it seems like the trades can lead to a longer life because you are moving around rather than sitting in an office. (The dangers to our health of sitting for long period of time have been in the news recently, based on research.) On the other hand, a family friend who was a mechanic for 40 years recently retired, and his knees are pretty much shot for having stood on the concrete all day every day. But otherwise his health is good.

If my son or daughter were to go into one of the trades, I'd first want them to go to college. That way they will have had that experience of living on campus, meeting young adults from all over, and learning to balance a class load. College is about more than just getting a job. It can exposure you to areas of learning, which I think is useful for life. Just choose a state university to save on tuition.

Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 11:12     Subject: Re:Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I disagree with the premise. Basic college (even community college) is now what high school was fifty years ago - an entry level education. I would go as far as to say that all kids need at least an Associate degree before entering any trade school.

Just my opinion. The world has changed.

Agree (sadly). School has been dumbed down so much, you actually need more schooling after school.


School has been dumbed so much? 60 years ago, my father got into medical school after college without ever having taken any calculus. My daughter will graduate from high school with two years of calculus.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 11:07     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Most of you would say the same thing about enlisting in the military right out of high school. My nephew actually enlisted at the beginning of his senior year, and I believe that's the only reason he graduated. Five years later, he has a solid career with the Navy, no debt, huge savings and he's seen half the world.


The military is very different. There are many pathways to upward mobility in the miliarty. Much less so as a mechanic.

I thought mechanics did fairly well. A friend's daughter got a job right out of school for like 70K, and this is not DC, a much cheaper area.


Right. But what will she make when she's 45? The point is a lot of the trades flatten out after a few years.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 11:02     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is this a homework assignment?

Obviously, the kids who benefit from this are not chosing between Stanford and an apprenticeship. Generally, not the DCUM demographic. They are chosing between no college and an apprenticeship, or a fraudulent for profit "college" and an apprenticeship.


This is, in fact, not true. My BIL had a full scholarship to a very well respected college, high grades, high test scores, and was a great student. He left after one semester because he enjoys working with his hands. He is a master electrician and part owner of his own company. Is he a millionaire? No, not yet. But he is very comfortable, loves his job, has a great family, is involved in the community, and is generally a very happy person. I know many others like him.

To suggest that everyone who chooses a "trade," is somehow not cut out academically for a four-year degree betrays your ignorance of any people who actually work in trades. Skilled trades can be a very lucrative (and stable) career path. You can't really outsource your electrician, plumber, brick mason, car mechanic, etc. ALL of these things require skills.

OP, to answer your question, I would hope that my child chooses college. I'm not going to lie about that. But if he were to tell me that he would be truly the most happy about pursuing a skilled trade or a position in technical manufacturing, I would support him 100%. My child is an autonomous being and I have no delusions that I can control his choices in life.


I come from a blue-collar family, so most of the men I'm related to have a trade--construction, carpentry, mechanic, etc. And there is upward mobility--some of them become managers, or own their own businesses. I don't see any shame in work like that--it takes real skill. I'd like my child to go to college, because I think a good liberal education teaches skills in critical reading and thinking, writing and communication, that are really important. But the skilled trades are good, honest work, and I would never be ashamed if my child chose one of those careers.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:58     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Most of you would say the same thing about enlisting in the military right out of high school. My nephew actually enlisted at the beginning of his senior year, and I believe that's the only reason he graduated. Five years later, he has a solid career with the Navy, no debt, huge savings and he's seen half the world.


The military is very different. There are many pathways to upward mobility in the miliarty. Much less so as a mechanic.


No. There are some pathways upward in the military, and many pathways where moving upward is impossible.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:57     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:Is this a homework assignment?

Obviously, the kids who benefit from this are not chosing between Stanford and an apprenticeship. Generally, not the DCUM demographic. They are chosing between no college and an apprenticeship, or a fraudulent for profit "college" and an apprenticeship.


This is, in fact, not true. My BIL had a full scholarship to a very well respected college, high grades, high test scores, and was a great student. He left after one semester because he enjoys working with his hands. He is a master electrician and part owner of his own company. Is he a millionaire? No, not yet. But he is very comfortable, loves his job, has a great family, is involved in the community, and is generally a very happy person. I know many others like him.

To suggest that everyone who chooses a "trade," is somehow not cut out academically for a four-year degree betrays your ignorance of any people who actually work in trades. Skilled trades can be a very lucrative (and stable) career path. You can't really outsource your electrician, plumber, brick mason, car mechanic, etc. ALL of these things require skills.

OP, to answer your question, I would hope that my child chooses college. I'm not going to lie about that. But if he were to tell me that he would be truly the most happy about pursuing a skilled trade or a position in technical manufacturing, I would support him 100%. My child is an autonomous being and I have no delusions that I can control his choices in life.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:49     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Most of you would say the same thing about enlisting in the military right out of high school. My nephew actually enlisted at the beginning of his senior year, and I believe that's the only reason he graduated. Five years later, he has a solid career with the Navy, no debt, huge savings and he's seen half the world.


The military is very different. There are many pathways to upward mobility in the miliarty. Much less so as a mechanic.

I thought mechanics did fairly well. A friend's daughter got a job right out of school for like 70K, and this is not DC, a much cheaper area.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:47     Subject: Re:Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
Anonymous wrote:I disagree with the premise. Basic college (even community college) is now what high school was fifty years ago - an entry level education. I would go as far as to say that all kids need at least an Associate degree before entering any trade school.

Just my opinion. The world has changed.

Agree (sadly). School has been dumbed down so much, you actually need more schooling after school.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:45     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
I have no issue with my child opting for a vocational school if he can't keep up with college. Not everyone is suited to pursue a highly academic career, so regardless of what parents may want or not want, some kids will not grow up doctors and lawyers. Therefore, yes, I believe the vocational option is vitally important. I do want my kid to be a freaking genius, but that is largly out of my control.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2015 10:43     Subject: Alternative to College: Great for the USA but NOT my kids!
The richest person in my neighborhood is a plumber. Of course, they no longer plumb; they manage a bunch of plumbers that work under them. I think the thing to do is to make people in management programs realize that actually knowning something about the trade they manage would help them make their business profitable. I think if there were a joint degree with a business school and a vocational school, that would be very attractive to many people. Hotel management programs already do this at universities. they run real hotels, and the students do all levels of work to learn it all. Why not the same for other trade busineses?