Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:53     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Hit submit too quickly. I 100% agree with the previous poster.

Middle school is such a huge transition on so many levels that waiting until then to get grades is just wrong.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:51     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
I didn't worry about all P's when my kid was in ES (in HGC), but it did in fact create a rough transition to MS. "Good enough" work that would have earned a P in ES could be anything from an A to a C in MS. If you don't have a problem with a mix of A's and B's with the occasional C, then the "P is par" system is fine. But my kid is capable of A-level work, and I expect it. Unfortunately, after she spent years in ES learning that this enormous range of effort and ability all qualifies as a "P" it created bad study habits.

We've been working all year in 6th grade to fix those bad habits and to teach things like better attention to detail (answer all the questions! turn stuff in on time!) and caring about quality of work (just getting it done vs taking the time to create something you can be proud of and that teaches you something). It's not that it's impossible to impart those lessons with the P/I/N system, but it's harder -- makes the parent the bad guy when you demand better effort ("I got a P, why isn't that good enough for you?")

Also, the grades are the easiest way for parents to understand how kids are doing. If my kid gets a B, I know there is something she needs to understand better, or work harder on. When she got a P, I couldn't tell what that meant. Does she really understand, or does she just "sort of" get it? In MS, you know, down to the tenth of a percentage point. So it was a rude awakening for everyone, frankly.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:48     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Common core doesn't require schools to stop providing grades. This is an MCPS decision. Howard and other MD counties give children normal grades in 3.4 and 5. This is unfair hat kids in Montgomery County are put at a disadvantage compared to kids in other MD counties.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:48     Subject: Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For what it worth, OP, I think a lot of kids are going to be in the same boat. The first time they get ABC grades will be a rude awakening. I think it is fine to not grade the real little kids. But by 3rd, 4th, 5th grade, they should be getting grades that reflects performance. This way, a lot of middle schoolers are going to realize that they are behind and it will take a lot of efforts to catch up or they may never catch up.


Do you actually know that this will happen, or are you just assuming that it will happen?

My daughter is in sixth grade. She got the standards-based report card last year. She hasn't had any problems with ABC grades this year. I'd like to hear from other parents of sixth-graders about their adjustments.


I didn't worry about all P's when my kid was in ES (in HGC), but it did in fact create a rough transition to MS. "Good enough" work that would have earned a P in ES could be anything from an A to a C in MS. If you don't have a problem with a mix of A's and B's with the occasional C, then the "P is par" system is fine. But my kid is capable of A-level work, and I expect it. Unfortunately, after she spent years in ES learning that this enormous range of effort and ability all qualifies as a "P" it created bad study habits.

We've been working all year in 6th grade to fix those bad habits and to teach things like better attention to detail (answer all the questions! turn stuff in on time!) and caring about quality of work (just getting it done vs taking the time to create something you can be proud of and that teaches you something). It's not that it's impossible to impart those lessons with the P/I/N system, but it's harder -- makes the parent the bad guy when you demand better effort ("I got a P, why isn't that good enough for you?")

Also, the grades are the easiest way for parents to understand how kids are doing. If my kid gets a B, I know there is something she needs to understand better, or work harder on. When she got a P, I couldn't tell what that meant. Does she really understand, or does she just "sort of" get it? In MS, you know, down to the tenth of a percentage point. So it was a rude awakening for everyone, frankly.


I should have said I'm a NP, not the PP.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:46     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
It comes into play with math too. For normal math, yes you can see whether the answer is right or wrong. In MCPS math you need to write an essay explaining how you thought about it using words and sentences.

I have seen my child get an ES because she wrote a long, overly wordy paragraph that was actually wrong in terms of the math!! She also learned that for some teachers you have to spit back out exactly how they described it. I have seen her get an I on an assignment even though the explanation was correct but it didn't match how the teacher wanted her to describe it. In the end she gets all Ps on the grade card.

This redefinition of math as a language skill is incredibly stupid so I'm not overly concerned with DD excelling at MCPS math. We now have to pay for outside math courses so we can be confident that she'll have a good math foundation in the future.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:45     Subject: Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For what it worth, OP, I think a lot of kids are going to be in the same boat. The first time they get ABC grades will be a rude awakening. I think it is fine to not grade the real little kids. But by 3rd, 4th, 5th grade, they should be getting grades that reflects performance. This way, a lot of middle schoolers are going to realize that they are behind and it will take a lot of efforts to catch up or they may never catch up.


Do you actually know that this will happen, or are you just assuming that it will happen?

My daughter is in sixth grade. She got the standards-based report card last year. She hasn't had any problems with ABC grades this year. I'd like to hear from other parents of sixth-graders about their adjustments.


I didn't worry about all P's when my kid was in ES (in HGC), but it did in fact create a rough transition to MS. "Good enough" work that would have earned a P in ES could be anything from an A to a C in MS. If you don't have a problem with a mix of A's and B's with the occasional C, then the "P is par" system is fine. But my kid is capable of A-level work, and I expect it. Unfortunately, after she spent years in ES learning that this enormous range of effort and ability all qualifies as a "P" it created bad study habits.

We've been working all year in 6th grade to fix those bad habits and to teach things like better attention to detail (answer all the questions! turn stuff in on time!) and caring about quality of work (just getting it done vs taking the time to create something you can be proud of and that teaches you something). It's not that it's impossible to impart those lessons with the P/I/N system, but it's harder -- makes the parent the bad guy when you demand better effort ("I got a P, why isn't that good enough for you?")

Also, the grades are the easiest way for parents to understand how kids are doing. If my kid gets a B, I know there is something she needs to understand better, or work harder on. When she got a P, I couldn't tell what that meant. Does she really understand, or does she just "sort of" get it? In MS, you know, down to the tenth of a percentage point. So it was a rude awakening for everyone, frankly.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:42     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:I agree. Without any connection between an I, P, and ES, my DS doesn't seem to worry about what he is doing and what he is getting. Get everything right, get a P. Do something wrong (but who knows what), get an I. Something magical happened, get an ES. He doesn't feel like he has much control over the grades so he decides to just do what he wants and see how it turns out.

It is also harder to help motivate because I can't say "work hard and get an ES." I feel like my message is more "avoid an I. Just turn stuff in so you get a P".

Now my kid is going to HGC and I think there is going to be a rude awakening because they seem to require more accountability. However, there are tons of bright kids who are going to have to go through the grade conversion in middle school and that will be rough.


This is SO TRUE!

It's not as if there are specific requirements to get an ES, and you can tell your kid 'hey, this is what you need to do to get an ES'. The teachers don't really seem to be able to define it - we've asked!
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:41     Subject: Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:My kids are older but I am assuming on a math paper you might have 10/10 "p" or 7/10 "p" Dopesn't the number ratio still provide enough info for the child to act on.


IMO, it really comes up in writing. I've seen my own kids' and other kids work (kids of friends, etc) that have been graded as I/P/ES, but there really isn't any explanation of warrants an ES. Normally, it's just broken down as "Narrative/Use of Language (? I think)" and then it just says I/P/ES. So, it really isn't clear what needs improvement.

I know someone will come on and say 'Just ask the teacher', but I'm not emailing the teacher on every single assignment. It would be way easier if they could just make it more clear what the expectations are.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:39     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Why do you need to know where your child is comparatively?


As a parent of a special needs child, this is the type of information that is most critical. In fact, the best testing and research centers on learning disabilities rely heavily on comparative data to pin point where a child is struggling.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:38     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:I hate this attitude in MCPS that performance and achievement doesn't matter. "Do your best" is as meaningless as "have a nice day". The issue often isn't effort, its not understanding what is important and how much of it to include or not include. A good grading system measures this and sends a signal to the students that they missed something, when they missed it. This is a natural for the student who probably thought they did their best to look closer at what they didn't understand, practice it, and do better the next time. This is learning.

The poster that said he son just turns in what he wants and feels no control over his grades is spot on.


Is that the attitude at your child's school? I'm sorry. It's not the attitude at my child's school.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:37     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:I hate this attitude in MCPS that performance and achievement doesn't matter. "Do your best" is as meaningless as "have a nice day". The issue often isn't effort, its not understanding what is important and how much of it to include or not include. A good grading system measures this and sends a signal to the students that they missed something, when they missed it. This is a natural for the student who probably thought they did their best to look closer at what they didn't understand, practice it, and do better the next time. This is learning.

The poster that said he son just turns in what he wants and feels no control over his grades is spot on.


If you want students to know what they missed, when they missed it, you don't need grades; you need comments on the papers.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:32     Subject: Problem with all Ps
My kids are older but I am assuming on a math paper you might have 10/10 "p" or 7/10 "p" Dopesn't the number ratio still provide enough info for the child to act on.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:30     Subject: Re:Problem with all Ps
I hate this attitude in MCPS that performance and achievement doesn't matter. "Do your best" is as meaningless as "have a nice day". The issue often isn't effort, its not understanding what is important and how much of it to include or not include. A good grading system measures this and sends a signal to the students that they missed something, when they missed it. This is a natural for the student who probably thought they did their best to look closer at what they didn't understand, practice it, and do better the next time. This is learning.

The poster that said he son just turns in what he wants and feels no control over his grades is spot on.
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:24     Subject: Problem with all Ps
Anonymous wrote:True, because it is harder to argue that a child is falling behind or not living up to potential when he has all Ps. Again the results of this type of grading is you don't know where your child is comparatively.


Why do you need to know where your child is comparatively?
Anonymous
Post 04/17/2015 13:17     Subject: Problem with all Ps
True, because it is harder to argue that a child is falling behind or not living up to potential when he has all Ps. Again the results of this type of grading is you don't know where your child is comparatively.