jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This sounds a little.like blackmail - u can't draw cartoons and you can't criticize fringe groups in my religion as drawing a religious rationale or I will go from.peace-loving to a head chopperoffer? Are you really that peace loving if its that easy to move the dial to alienated killer? Is our goal to stand up for universal human values or to appease killers

Please, I am so tired of the "distort your argument so that I can criticize it" tactic that I constantly encounter here. I am specifically arguing the opposite of saying you can't criticize fringe groups. Rather, I am arguing that attacking the entire religion increases divisions with members of that group. I am baffled that this is not simply accepted as fact. Criticizing the fringe groups is exactly what I suggest we do. Accurate and specific criticism is exactly what is needed. IS had committed atrocities for which there is no excuse or justification. They should be condemned without equivocation. But, their actions say nothing about Islam as a whole.

Anonymous wrote:Saying radical Christian or radical.Muslim to me differentiates from the peace lovers. Its just different ways of looking at it. But neither attacks the entire group.

Anonymous wrote:
Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

Anonymous wrote:This sounds a little.like blackmail - u can't draw cartoons and you can't criticize fringe groups in my religion as drawing a religious rationale or I will go from.peace-loving to a head chopperoffer? Are you really that peace loving if its that easy to move the dial to alienated killer? Is our goal to stand up for universal human values or to appease killers

Anonymous wrote:Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Agree with PP that you are basically agreeing with ISIS, that there are many Muslims who can easily be pushed into the arms of ISIS if we hurt their feelings by criticizing their religion.

Also agree with PP that your position is based on the assumption that criticism always provokes anger rather than self-examination or even, God forbid, reformation. ISIS' strategy is based on the same assumption. Sure, Arab nationalism and Islamic pride have played big roles since the colonial era, but that shouldn't define everything the west does.

This will surprise you: alienated people engage in anti-social behaviors. The more that you contribute to the alienation of otherwise peace-loving people, the more you add to the potential pool who will act on their anger. That is simple fact.

Can you please explain to me what you believe are the benefits of broadly and generally insulting Muslims?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Agree with PP that you are basically agreeing with ISIS, that there are many Muslims who can easily be pushed into the arms of ISIS if we hurt their feelings by criticizing their religion.

Also agree with PP that your position is based on the assumption that criticism always provokes anger rather than self-examination or even, God forbid, reformation. ISIS' strategy is based on the same assumption. Sure, Arab nationalism and Islamic pride have played big roles since the colonial era, but that shouldn't define everything the west does.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

As I have said before, the communists used to talk about "sharpening the contradictions" and creating a situation in which people were forced to choose sides. IS is following the same strategy. Read this article about the latest issue of the group's magazine:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/12/new-islamic-state-magazines-brags-eliminating-grayzone/

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

The more people like you react in the way you are, the better it serves the goals of IS. IS absolutely wants you to hold the entire Muslim religion guilty for their deeds. They absolutely want you to hate all Muslims.

Yet you jump at the chance to spread division and hate by labling the Chapel Hill murders a hate crime before the facts are in. Good job serving IS's goals and purposes hypocrite.