Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

No, they are in the 30 day window to RESPOND. Not appeal. RESPOND. Your attitude and ignorance is really quite appalling.

I think what is appalling is that the supervisor is seeking guidance on an open forum from non-experts. It doesn't reflect well on any degree of management skill. Consult your HR group and follow their guidance.

I am one of the people who sought to clarify his confusion about the process. That being said, I find this reaction unwarranted.

What kind of "expert" should he/she be looking to? The man appears concerned for his safety and id looking for other people who have been in similar situations to weigh in with their experiences. He isn't asking about HR policy or legal avenues the other employee could pursue against him. He/she is scared and was reaching out. He/she is asking for insights from anybody who has ever terminated anybody.

Because he hasn't terminated anyone. He doesn't seem to understand that.

The post I was responding to called the OP out for seeking advice on this board rather than consulting HR. That seems unfair. Other managers who have been through the termination process are exactly the people he should be looking to for the question he had, not his HR shop.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

No, they are in the 30 day window to RESPOND. Not appeal. RESPOND. Your attitude and ignorance is really quite appalling.

I think what is appalling is that the supervisor is seeking guidance on an open forum from non-experts. It doesn't reflect well on any degree of management skill. Consult your HR group and follow their guidance.

I am one of the people who sought to clarify his confusion about the process. That being said, I find this reaction unwarranted.

What kind of "expert" should he/she be looking to? The man appears concerned for his safety and id looking for other people who have been in similar situations to weigh in with their experiences. He isn't asking about HR policy or legal avenues the other employee could pursue against him. He/she is scared and was reaching out. He/she is asking for insights from anybody who has ever terminated anybody.

Because he hasn't terminated anyone. He doesn't seem to understand that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

No, they are in the 30 day window to RESPOND. Not appeal. RESPOND. Your attitude and ignorance is really quite appalling.

I think what is appalling is that the supervisor is seeking guidance on an open forum from non-experts. It doesn't reflect well on any degree of management skill. Consult your HR group and follow their guidance.

I am one of the people who sought to clarify his confusion about the process. That being said, I find this reaction unwarranted.

What kind of "expert" should he/she be looking to? The man appears concerned for his safety and id looking for other people who have been in similar situations to weigh in with their experiences. He isn't asking about HR policy or legal avenues the other employee could pursue against him. He/she is scared and was reaching out. He/she is asking for insights from anybody who has ever terminated anybody.

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on her (or him) for asking an anonymous question? They did say it was their first time having to go through this process. I've never been through it but as a government contractor, I've observed it and been co-workers with people going through the process, and it isn't pleasant for anyone involved. Some of the picking here appears to be semantics or jumping to conclusions, though I would agree it sounds like the HR office hasn't explained things very thoroughly.

OP, I can't offer any advice, but a few here have mentioned asking about administrative leave during the 30 day window. And they're right, it is a 30 day period to respond, not an appeal. That may have been an honest mistake on your part, but the difference is pretty important.

Agreed - and if OP's HR office is anything like ours - they are completely useless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

No, they are in the 30 day window to RESPOND. Not appeal. RESPOND. Your attitude and ignorance is really quite appalling.

I think what is appalling is that the supervisor is seeking guidance on an open forum from non-experts. It doesn't reflect well on any degree of management skill. Consult your HR group and follow their guidance.

Not the OP, but I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on her (or him) for asking an anonymous question? They did say it was their first time having to go through this process. I've never been through it but as a government contractor, I've observed it and been co-workers with people going through the process, and it isn't pleasant for anyone involved. Some of the picking here appears to be semantics or jumping to conclusions, though I would agree it sounds like the HR office hasn't explained things very thoroughly.

OP, I can't offer any advice, but a few here have mentioned asking about administrative leave during the 30 day window. And they're right, it is a 30 day period to respond, not an appeal. That may have been an honest mistake on your part, but the difference is pretty important.

Anonymous wrote:Are you certain the person would not be placed on administrative leave during this thirty day window? I've worked for three different federal agencies, and in each case when an employee was removed from service (or recommended to be removed from service) he was escorted out, and laced on admin leave during the appeals process.

This has been my experience as well.

OP you need to talk to HR...stat!

If you are wise, you will drop this inquiry. The fact that you consider removal a foregone conclusion taints the whole removal process.

I don't man to pile-on here. but some of OP's responses seem to indicate that he is not getting this point. I don't blame OP, I blame his HR shop. They did a really crappy job explaining the process, apparently.

To reiterate, this individual was not terminated. He/she is not appealing. Basically, you suggested that somebody else consider terminating the employee. That other person gets to decide whether to terminate him/her. No decision has been made. No appeal has been filed. There is a very real possibility that this individual may not be terminated. By way of an example, when I defended employees I was successful in convincing a deciding official not to terminate nearly 50% of the time. (The success rate goes up once we were actually in the appeal process before a third party).

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

OP, a couple of points from a manager who has been through many proposed removals.

The employee has the opportunity under federal regulations to respond both in writing and verbally.

The deciding official must consider everything in the responses before making a decision. The decision cannot be a foregone conclusion.

What is in the responses may surprise the deciding official (You are not involved in the decision. Your role is over.)

Do you realize you may NOT discuss the proposal with the deciding official?

The deciding official must also consider demotion, lengthy suspension and all lesser forms of discipline.

There may be factors and mitigating circumstances you know nothing about. Such as disability, medical problems, etc.

If you are wise, you will drop this inquiry. The fact that you consider removal a foregone conclusion taints the whole removal process.

This is a horrible policy. Do you have any reason to think the person has precarious mental health? Or you think firing then will send them over the edge?

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

No, they are in the 30 day window to RESPOND. Not appeal. RESPOND. Your attitude and ignorance is really quite appalling.

Is your HR any good? If so, I'd ask them in a general sense what to look out for in this situation and how to protect yourself. Explain it's your first time and you want general guidance. Also, are there other managers in your agency you can talk to? Personnel attorneys?

I don't envy you. Good luck.

OP, yes, I should have said "Proposed removal" of an employee, they're in the 30 day window to appeal, though I don't know where they'd make much of a case.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP--you work for a Federal agency. Surely you have a supervisor or some HR office that you can talk with and advise. Coming to an anonymous forum and searching random websites isn't how one goes about being an informed manager. Use the resources you have within your office to help navigate this process. You're not the first person to terminate someone. There's no need for you to be out there on your own.

OP again. I'm well aware of our HR office, I've worked with them closely on this. I came to an anonymous forum to gauge general opinions, I don't want to raise an issue like this and have the employee not only face termination, but also the idea that their manager is concerned they are a loose cannon. And I have no opinion on them either way in regards to this, but I've never gone through this process before. HR documents everything, I don't want to express a concern like this to them if it isn't well founded.

But OP, you have not "Terminated" the employee. You've only proposed removal.

Are you sure you are not confusing the 30 day period for responding to a Proposal to Remove with an "appeal period"?

It sounds like you are. The 30 day period for responding to the Proposal to Remove is part of due process. The employee is not "terminated" at that point. The decision could be not to fire the employee.