Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:31     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Universal access devaluates education. 4-year college used to mean something. Now it means nothing. PP is right, garbage in, garbage out.

It needs to be MUCH more competitive (based on merit).


I assume that you mean it "devalues" education. I could not agree more. Buying into the notion that college is only for the rich or "very smart" is a slick way of saying that you want to limit opportunities to certain types of people. IMO, that would only worsen the income gap that is currently growing. If you think the middle class is in danger now, then just wait.

Besides that, community colleges are not 4 year colleges. Also, community colleges are the primary providers of vocational education and occupational certifications in the country. Not everyone who is going to a CC is pursuing a 4 year degree. So, if you make the 4 year colleges more competitive, what do you do with those that don't make the cut? Highly likely that those folks would attend CC to try to create opportunities for themselves. I am just not in favor of any plan that makes it HARDER for people to educate themselves.


sorry - I could not disagree more.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:31     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:Universal access devaluates education. 4-year college used to mean something. Now it means nothing. PP is right, garbage in, garbage out.

It needs to be MUCH more competitive (based on merit).


I assume that you mean it "devalues" education. I could not agree more. Buying into the notion that college is only for the rich or "very smart" is a slick way of saying that you want to limit opportunities to certain types of people. IMO, that would only worsen the income gap that is currently growing. If you think the middle class is in danger now, then just wait.

Besides that, community colleges are not 4 year colleges. Also, community colleges are the primary providers of vocational education and occupational certifications in the country. Not everyone who is going to a CC is pursuing a 4 year degree. So, if you make the 4 year colleges more competitive, what do you do with those that don't make the cut? Highly likely that those folks would attend CC to try to create opportunities for themselves. I am just not in favor of any plan that makes it HARDER for people to educate themselves.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:19     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If you don't have the determination to pay for your own education you shouldn't be getting one


The proposal has a work requirement, is that enough for you?


Of course it is not enough for PP - because PP is spouting that same old "bootstrap" rhetoric. In fact, I doubt that PP has even read the detail of the proposal or tried to understand it.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:18     Subject: Free Community College
Universal access devaluates education. 4-year college used to mean something. Now it means nothing. PP is right, garbage in, garbage out.

It needs to be MUCH more competitive (based on merit).
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:00     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:If you don't have the determination to pay for your own education you shouldn't be getting one


Once again, you are bringing the DCUM perspective to the issue.

Many people ARE determined to get a college education. Problem is that many of them take out loans to do it. Student debt and rising college costs are setting the stage for a huge crisis and student default rates on GSL's are already alarmingly high. That is not a good trend for any of us because the taxpayers are ultimately guaranteeing those loans. IMO, if my tax dollars are paying for a $3000 per year education as opposed to guaranteeing someone's $30,000 a year education, I am on board.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 10:00     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:I think it's the greatest idea in the world! Jefferson said in essense that a well educated population is fundamental to having a successful democracy. During the greatest eras in American economic growth were also when the US had the most well educated and literate populations.

At present only 30% of Americans have four year college degrees or high. Education is the key to upward social mobility. Many students either can't afford college, are afraid of taking on debt, or ill prepared for the academic rigors of the first year of traditional college. Some students take no AP classes in high school. Now send them after graduation from high school straight to freshman year of college where they are expected to take the equivalent of five AP courses during their first semester. It's a recipe for disaster. That's why 50% of students entering college quit before ever receiving a Bachelors Degree.

There should be no negative stigma, attached to community colleges. For some it's financial and for others it's a more gradual step into college level academics.

It's an expense we tax payers can easily bear. Secondly a well educated workforce will create greater individual and national wealth translating into a broader tax base. It's a win-win concept all the way around.

Most every polytechnical university in the country was founded by corporate leaders who realized there were too few trained engineers and business managers available to run their companies. They invested in education and created the well educated workforce they needed to remain profitable.

There is no better investment we can make with our tax dollars than free community college educations for all.


Agree with a lot of this, but there are, of course, hundreds of better investments we could make with our tax dollars.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:53     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Once again, folks on DCUM look at issues from purely a DCUM perspective - that every kid is destined to end up at a 4 year college, etc.

Look at your CC student demographic. High concentration of vocational students. High concentration of students who are only seeking an associates degree related to a professional certification. High concentration of working students, including working parents. Sure, people will use this to eventually get to the 4 year school on the cheap - but a lot of folks do that now. CC's are still relatively cheap. For a kid taking a full load, you are talking about $3K a year. But IMO, if the student leaves with some emplyable skill that makes them self sufficient (as opposed to needing welfare), it is a worthy investment.


Like learning how to spell employable.


Yea, thanks for ignoring everything else in the post to point out that I made a typing error. I know how to spell but I do need to learn how to type on a smartphone. So...thanks for that. Asshole - did I spell that right?

Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:49     Subject: Free Community College
K-14. Many kids that go to community college need remedial education because they are not academically prepared to be successful. They spend the first year or so doing high school level work. It's just another bandage on our abysmal public education system.

Warp around intervention services before the kids are even born is a better investment. The story doesn't change, fix poverty and the "solutions' don't change anything.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:47     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:If you don't have the determination to pay for your own education you shouldn't be getting one


The proposal has a work requirement, is that enough for you?
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:47     Subject: Free Community College
A BA/BS is the equivalent of a HS diploma these days. The differentiator is now a masters degree.

So why not exend the public school system to cover post HS for 2 years. It doesn't have to be mandatory but if you want it, it's available.

CC is cheaper than preschool. As another pp posted, you can carry 30 credits for around $3K. And you end up with a more educated or vocationally trained workforce. You also end up with people "only" needing 2 more years of college. 2 years is often less daunting to sign up for than 4 yrs.

There will always be a place for the exclusive 4 colleges--just like there is a place for private HS in this area. Free CC just gives more people access to higher education.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:46     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:I think it's the greatest idea in the world! Jefferson said in essense that a well educated population is fundamental to having a successful democracy. During the greatest eras in American economic growth were also when the US had the most well educated and literate populations.

At present only 30% of Americans have four year college degrees or high. Education is the key to upward social mobility. Many students either can't afford college, are afraid of taking on debt, or ill prepared for the academic rigors of the first year of traditional college. Some students take no AP classes in high school. Now send them after graduation from high school straight to freshman year of college where they are expected to take the equivalent of five AP courses during their first semester. It's a recipe for disaster. That's why 50% of students entering college quit before ever receiving a Bachelors Degree.

There should be no negative stigma, attached to community colleges. For some it's financial and for others it's a more gradual step into college level academics.

It's an expense we tax payers can easily bear. Secondly a well educated workforce will create greater individual and national wealth translating into a broader tax base. It's a win-win concept all the way around.

Most every polytechnical university in the country was founded by corporate leaders who realized there were too few trained engineers and business managers available to run their companies. They invested in education and created the well educated workforce they needed to remain profitable.

There is no better investment we can make with our tax dollars than free community college educations for all.


+1,000

and a standing ovation, thank you for a thoughtful response that considers a broad range of people's experiences and no judgment - a refreshing DCUM post, indeed
jsteele
Post 01/09/2015 09:45     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:I think the govt should provide free all day preschool for all before this. It would be great for the children, help working women, and help the middle and lower income families.


The President already addressed preschool:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/10/02/remarks-president-economy-northwestern-university

"If we make high-quality preschool available to every child, not only will we give our kids a safe place to learn and grow while their parents go to work; we’ll give them the start that they need to succeed in school, and earn higher wages, and form more stable families of their own. In fact, today, I’m setting a new goal: By the end of this decade, let’s enroll 6 million children in high-quality preschool. That is an achievable goal that we know will make our workforce stronger. "

Like the community college proposal, these goals are nice, but meaningless without support in Congress to implement them.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:39     Subject: Free Community College
Preschool would be a way better use of resources. It's one of the top reasons that single moms struggle to go to college you also can't get loans for preschool and it costs the same as college.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:37     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:If you don't have the determination to pay for your own education you shouldn't be getting one


Thanks, Mitt.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2015 09:36     Subject: Free Community College
Anonymous wrote:If you don't have the determination to pay for your own education you shouldn't be getting one
I agree with this completely! And, why wait until 18? It should start at 5.