Anonymous
12/19/2014 10:03
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
You sound unbearable.
+1,000
You sound like you don't know what you are talking about. At my residential LAC, we lived in dorms for 4 years. We ate in one cafeteria. My dorm was less than 1/2 block from every academic building. When we said we lived on campus, we literally lived on campus. I saw all of my classmates every day, for nearly every meal. I knew every person in my major really well. You are living with the people with whom you study. You know many of your professors personally. There are many more opportunities for undergraduate research and idea development. It's a community in a way that a big state school can't replicate.
Anonymous
12/19/2014 09:58
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
Of course this is a giant load of BS. But if you've dropped $150K+ on a degree, and the guy next you paid $40K for his, you've gotta justify it somehow.
I didn't spend a dime on my undergrad education. I had a full ride, on a merit scholarship. I also had multiple full rides to state schools. I was a National Merit Scholar. I had my choice of schools.
For most middle class kids and working class kids, grant aid at many LACs will make them comparable in cost to most state schools. Given that costs will be roughly equal, kids are better off at LACs.
It's kids who have parents with high income, but not high wealth, that are really screwed. They don't qualify for much aid and their parents are looking at sticker prices and trying to justify the extra $$$$$. I feel sorry for them.
Anonymous
12/19/2014 09:53
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
You sound unbearable.
+1,000
Anonymous
12/19/2014 09:45
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
Of course this is a giant load of BS. But if you've dropped $150K+ on a degree, and the guy next you paid $40K for his, you've gotta justify it somehow.
Anonymous
12/19/2014 08:39
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
You sound unbearable.
Anonymous
12/19/2014 08:35
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.
They try, but they don't it as well or as extensively. I've met very few state university graduates who can hold a candle to graduates of LACs, even from mediocre LACs. My LAC devoted 1/3 of the curriculum to the major, 1/3 to LAC requirements, and 1/3 to electives. That meant that students were less intensively educated in their majors, but more broadly educated in general. Many, many students took a double major in a science and a humanity. (biology and Latin, physics and philosophy, etc.) Students also have the opportunity to design their own majors, under the guidance of a professor and with approval from the college. Other students took the opportunity to explore subjects that interested them.
BTW, small LACS also have graduation rates that are quite a bit higher than state university graduation rates. They also have a shorter time to graduation. For a kid that is headed to graduate or professional school, it's best way to go.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 22:11
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 20:50
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:LACs always think that their curriculum is more "special" than the same courses taught at XYZ State University.
What else are they going to say? They have to justify the premium somehow.
*shrug* If you don't think it's worth it, don't pay it. Both of my kids want engineering degrees. I am going to push like hell for them to do a 3-2 engineering program and start at a non-Ivy LAC. I think it's worth their time to have that kind of education. I think it will make them better, happier people, not just better earners.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 20:47
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
To be fair, a lot of smaller, LACs have excellent student-to-faculty ratios. If you know that your child is going to need some hand-holding, a big state school might be good.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 20:46
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.
I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 20:12
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This article is on to something. The Ivy League and other need-blind schools are still a premium product, because of their great financial aid and the doors they will open for a graduate. In some ways, HYPS are probably still under-priced in that their full pay customers would be willing to pay even more than they already do to attend, and that wouldn't affect the amount paid by financial aid recipients.
But non-selective private colleges are about to be in a real bind. They are not a premium product, they just charge premium prices. There is no quantifiable advantage in going to Loyola or American over UMaryland - and yet they cost more than twice as much.
I expect the competition for the truly elite schools to continue becoming even more intense. And I expect public schools to pick up more and more applications, and better qualified students - those who fall just short of the highly selective schools. But the non-selective private schools are going to realize that people are no longer willing to pay their ridiculously high prices, and are going to have to change their business model. Unfortunately, many of them are highly in debt and are heading for deep trouble.
This is particularly true for law and grad schools. Why would one pay Harvard prices for an AU law degree?
Maybe most students don't. My niece is probably qualified for a 10th-25th ranked law school (she's still waiting to hear from her top choices and did not apply to any of those usually considered in the top 5), but she's being bombarded with $$ from lower ranked schools (~25th and up). If she ends up taking one of those offers, she may pay only 1/3 or 1/2 of full tuition over the 3 years.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 18:45
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
LACs always think that their curriculum is more "special" than the same courses taught at XYZ State University.
What else are they going to say? They have to justify the premium somehow.
What else are they going to say? They have to justify the premium somehow.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 18:16
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.
+1
My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.
I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.
State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 17:50
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This article is on to something. The Ivy League and other need-blind schools are still a premium product, because of their great financial aid and the doors they will open for a graduate. In some ways, HYPS are probably still under-priced in that their full pay customers would be willing to pay even more than they already do to attend, and that wouldn't affect the amount paid by financial aid recipients.
But non-selective private colleges are about to be in a real bind. They are not a premium product, they just charge premium prices. There is no quantifiable advantage in going to Loyola or American over UMaryland - and yet they cost more than twice as much.
I expect the competition for the truly elite schools to continue becoming even more intense. And I expect public schools to pick up more and more applications, and better qualified students - those who fall just short of the highly selective schools. But the non-selective private schools are going to realize that people are no longer willing to pay their ridiculously high prices, and are going to have to change their business model. Unfortunately, many of them are highly in debt and are heading for deep trouble.
This is particularly true for law and grad schools. Why would one pay Harvard prices for an AU law degree?
Most people are not in a position to make such a choice.
And most flagship state schools, even the well-known "football factories," are becoming difficult to get into.
Anonymous
12/18/2014 15:30
Subject: WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"
If you are paying sticker price for a school like American vs. going to UMaryland, I think the author has a point. But, he conveniently misses the fact that for most middle class families, many selective private schools are going to very much in line with the costs of state schools due to their extremely generous financial aid.
I guess it depends how you define middle class. If you are of the DCUM mindset that anything below $250K is lower-middle class, then sure, you're going to be paying a lot for these private schools. But, We have a HHI of $120,000, which is not poor whatsoever and an income I always thought of as solidly middle to upper-middle class, and my daughter was able to go to a top 20 USNWR school for LESS than what our state school would have cost her.
I guess it depends how you define middle class. If you are of the DCUM mindset that anything below $250K is lower-middle class, then sure, you're going to be paying a lot for these private schools. But, We have a HHI of $120,000, which is not poor whatsoever and an income I always thought of as solidly middle to upper-middle class, and my daughter was able to go to a top 20 USNWR school for LESS than what our state school would have cost her.