Anonymous
Post 12/13/2014 09:48     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.


I think if you are doing their work for them and managing their time, your "high achiever" is not really a high achiever, just well-supported by resources. That is incredibly unfair to the actual high achievers who might be one or two extra curriculars short for that Ivy admission because they actually did their own work and managed their own time and knew they couldn't fit that extra resume padding activity in. In the end, though, that kid will be better off because he or she actually earns their own college admission and will probably be better prepared for college -- and life.


You raise interesting points but we may have to disagree. I do not view helping a child study by creating vocabulary flashcards for them to use, or typing up exactly what they have already handwritten on a rough draft of an essay so that they can devote their time to math homework as "doing their work for them" because all of the intellectual property and work that is actually graded is entirely theirs -- their words on the paper, their independent performance on the tests, their unprompted conversation during oral exams in foreign language classes, etc. I would consider it very wrong if I was editing their work as I typed it out, or writing the answers to a homework in my words then putting DC's name on it, but that's not at all what I would do, ever. I view my role as providing behind-the-scenes support the way an administrative assistant might at work in order to free my student to devote their time to things that only they can do such as actual writing, or problem sets, or creating a multimedia presentation for a class.

Again, I am sorry you find this inappropriate, but I'm surprised that you do. I will have to think carefully about the issue, because off the top of my head I cannot see where it is at all ethically questionable. When I was in school we were encouraged to have our parents quiz our vocabulary or help us with drill to study for tests. This is something I thought was so clearly OK that I would have no problem stating publicly or to the school the type of assistance I regularly provide my kids. That you object so strongly gives me pause, so thanks for giving me something to think about to reexamine whether what I am doing meets my ethical standards. I definitely don't want to short change my kids or do something wrong and unethical.


If you are acting as your kid's admin assistant because the kid has too many other things to do, then your kid can't handle the work load.

This is very telling to me.... how some supposedly high-achieving kids are able to manage their workload... they aren't. Apparently, their mommies are taking some of the workload for them.

As a parent, if you feel your kid has a lot to do, I can see stepping in and doing their laundry or chores for them once in a while, but things like typing up their papers and such, is doing their work for them. Doing HW is not just about the thinking, but also includes the physical act of writing/typing/erasing, etc...
Anonymous
Post 12/13/2014 07:54     Subject: cheating in high school
I can not believe people can justify doing their kids homework. But then, my parents helped my sister a lot. (I refused). She got better grades in hs, but barely graduated college. She now sells real estate. I, on the other hand, did better in college than HS, earned a PhD, and work in my field of study.
Anonymous
Post 12/13/2014 07:34     Subject: Re:cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:We have the same issue -- the teacher has some kind of mental problem (like dementia) It is pretty obvious, but the admin wants her to complete the year. This is because it throws light on the older students who had her in previous years and don't understand the material because she did not teach it. She can hardly get a whole sentence out, much less teach a difficult class like Chemistry. Not too helpful for anyone. We hired a tutor. It is a tough situation.


^^
DC has one teacher who's been really objectionable in a number of ways: grades arbitrarily, explodes unpredictably, assigns things the kids can't learn or he hasn't taught them, etcetera. Because nothing makes sense a lot of the assignments are really hard and DC, a good student, is really stressed out by them (yes, we've complained to the administration, and they're working on it.) In the interim, I don't think it's fair for DC to get a bad grade on this stuff because it wasn't taught, nor for DC to be under so much pressure from it.


This is the situation I mean.
Anonymous
Post 12/13/2014 07:32     Subject: Re:cheating in high school
We have the same issue -- the teacher has some kind of mental problem (like dementia) It is pretty obvious, but the admin wants her to complete the year. This is because it throws light on the older students who had her in previous years and don't understand the material because she did not teach it. She can hardly get a whole sentence out, much less teach a difficult class like Chemistry. Not too helpful for anyone. We hired a tutor. It is a tough situation.
Anonymous
Post 12/13/2014 06:48     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:Good lord, you people are insane. Step way back. Once your kids are in about 4th grade, their work and the time doing it, should be their own.

Holy cripes, I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread.



Me either. Really sad.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:35     Subject: cheating in high school
Good lord, you people are insane. Step way back. Once your kids are in about 4th grade, their work and the time doing it, should be their own.

Holy cripes, I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread.

Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:19     Subject: cheating in high school
23:17 again. I will quiz my DS if he asks. But he has prepared the flashcards or study guides. I would never, ever do that for him or type his papers. You don;t see the difference?
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:18     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.


I think if you are doing their work for them and managing their time, your "high achiever" is not really a high achiever, just well-supported by resources. That is incredibly unfair to the actual high achievers who might be one or two extra curriculars short for that Ivy admission because they actually did their own work and managed their own time and knew they couldn't fit that extra resume padding activity in. In the end, though, that kid will be better off because he or she actually earns their own college admission and will probably be better prepared for college -- and life.


You raise interesting points but we may have to disagree. I do not view helping a child study by creating vocabulary flashcards for them to use, or typing up exactly what they have already handwritten on a rough draft of an essay so that they can devote their time to math homework as "doing their work for them" because all of the intellectual property and work that is actually graded is entirely theirs -- their words on the paper, their independent performance on the tests, their unprompted conversation during oral exams in foreign language classes, etc. I would consider it very wrong if I was editing their work as I typed it out, or writing the answers to a homework in my words then putting DC's name on it, but that's not at all what I would do, ever. I view my role as providing behind-the-scenes support the way an administrative assistant might at work in order to free my student to devote their time to things that only they can do such as actual writing, or problem sets, or creating a multimedia presentation for a class.

Again, I am sorry you find this inappropriate, but I'm surprised that you do. I will have to think carefully about the issue, because off the top of my head I cannot see where it is at all ethically questionable. When I was in school we were encouraged to have our parents quiz our vocabulary or help us with drill to study for tests. This is something I thought was so clearly OK that I would have no problem stating publicly or to the school the type of assistance I regularly provide my kids. That you object so strongly gives me pause, so thanks for giving me something to think about to reexamine whether what I am doing meets my ethical standards. I definitely don't want to short change my kids or do something wrong and unethical.


You sound like a genuinely thoughtful person who is trying to do the best for your kids. I don't think what you're doing is ethically questionable, but I do think the involvement you describe denies them the ability to learn time management and other skills for themselves. Sometimes when people can't do it all, it's not that they need more help, but that they need to learn to manage their time better or maybe come to the realization that they have too much on their plate. Stepping in as your kid's secretary or personal assistant isn't the way to teach self-reliance.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:17     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.


I think if you are doing their work for them and managing their time, your "high achiever" is not really a high achiever, just well-supported by resources. That is incredibly unfair to the actual high achievers who might be one or two extra curriculars short for that Ivy admission because they actually did their own work and managed their own time and knew they couldn't fit that extra resume padding activity in. In the end, though, that kid will be better off because he or she actually earns their own college admission and will probably be better prepared for college -- and life.


You raise interesting points but we may have to disagree. I do not view helping a child study by creating vocabulary flashcards for them to use, or typing up exactly what they have already handwritten on a rough draft of an essay so that they can devote their time to math homework as "doing their work for them" because all of the intellectual property and work that is actually graded is entirely theirs -- their words on the paper, their independent performance on the tests, their unprompted conversation during oral exams in foreign language classes, etc. I would consider it very wrong if I was editing their work as I typed it out, or writing the answers to a homework in my words then putting DC's name on it, but that's not at all what I would do, ever. I view my role as providing behind-the-scenes support the way an administrative assistant might at work in order to free my student to devote their time to things that only they can do such as actual writing, or problem sets, or creating a multimedia presentation for a class.

Again, I am sorry you find this inappropriate, but I'm surprised that you do. I will have to think carefully about the issue, because off the top of my head I cannot see where it is at all ethically questionable. When I was in school we were encouraged to have our parents quiz our vocabulary or help us with drill to study for tests. This is something I thought was so clearly OK that I would have no problem stating publicly or to the school the type of assistance I regularly provide my kids. That you object so strongly gives me pause, so thanks for giving me something to think about to reexamine whether what I am doing meets my ethical standards. I definitely don't want to short change my kids or do something wrong and unethical.


Wow, just wow. It may meet your "ethical standards" and be their "intellectual property" (WTF? reallY?) but you are doing your DC a massive disservice. When you type their papers for them, create their flashcards, you are doing their "actual work" for them. Doing these things for themselves is something they have to learn or they will not have any true competence. Here's the test: do you tell the teacher you are doing these things? If not, why not? Concerned they won;t like it?

Your child has gotten the message that he can't do it on his own. Or maybe that all that counts is memorizing the words, not figuring out for yourself a system for learning (and the systems or MUCH more important than the substance). Or maybe that typing is something someone does for them because they're too good to do it themselves. But you are completely missing the point that all of these things are part of education. That you have to know how to study, how to organize your studying, how to type your papers and most of all how to manage your time so you can do these things.

Wow.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:08     Subject: cheating in high school
I would hire a tutor.

When it comes to a horrible teacher, I do all I can in my power - not to assure an A vs a C - but certainly to prevent a D or an F.

BUT would not ever do their work.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 23:01     Subject: cheating in high school
When you help your child this much, you rob them of a genuine sense of accomplishment.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 22:07     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.


I think if you are doing their work for them and managing their time, your "high achiever" is not really a high achiever, just well-supported by resources. That is incredibly unfair to the actual high achievers who might be one or two extra curriculars short for that Ivy admission because they actually did their own work and managed their own time and knew they couldn't fit that extra resume padding activity in. In the end, though, that kid will be better off because he or she actually earns their own college admission and will probably be better prepared for college -- and life.


You raise interesting points but we may have to disagree. I do not view helping a child study by creating vocabulary flashcards for them to use, or typing up exactly what they have already handwritten on a rough draft of an essay so that they can devote their time to math homework as "doing their work for them" because all of the intellectual property and work that is actually graded is entirely theirs -- their words on the paper, their independent performance on the tests, their unprompted conversation during oral exams in foreign language classes, etc. I would consider it very wrong if I was editing their work as I typed it out, or writing the answers to a homework in my words then putting DC's name on it, but that's not at all what I would do, ever. I view my role as providing behind-the-scenes support the way an administrative assistant might at work in order to free my student to devote their time to things that only they can do such as actual writing, or problem sets, or creating a multimedia presentation for a class.

Again, I am sorry you find this inappropriate, but I'm surprised that you do. I will have to think carefully about the issue, because off the top of my head I cannot see where it is at all ethically questionable. When I was in school we were encouraged to have our parents quiz our vocabulary or help us with drill to study for tests. This is something I thought was so clearly OK that I would have no problem stating publicly or to the school the type of assistance I regularly provide my kids. That you object so strongly gives me pause, so thanks for giving me something to think about to reexamine whether what I am doing meets my ethical standards. I definitely don't want to short change my kids or do something wrong and unethical.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 21:32     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.


I think if you are doing their work for them and managing their time, your "high achiever" is not really a high achiever, just well-supported by resources. That is incredibly unfair to the actual high achievers who might be one or two extra curriculars short for that Ivy admission because they actually did their own work and managed their own time and knew they couldn't fit that extra resume padding activity in. In the end, though, that kid will be better off because he or she actually earns their own college admission and will probably be better prepared for college -- and life.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 20:07     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?



I had a housemate in college , we were both juniors , that would sit on the phone with her mother for hours writing her papers. She would put the phone on speaker and we could hear her mother typing away while housemate did her nails, tried on clothes , ate ice cream , whatever.

And no, no learning disability or any other special need involved . She told us once her mother was paying her tuition and wanted to make sure she got her moneys worth.
Anonymous
Post 12/12/2014 19:55     Subject: cheating in high school
Anonymous wrote:How do you people expect your children to survive in college?

I'm 17:51, and I'll take that question. Everything I'm willing to do, I see as supporting my kids, not doing their actual work for them. That list is all things I did for DH while he was working full time and doing grad school at night.

In college, the kids will have more free time available for studying on a day-to-day basis. Right now they're at school for 8 hours a day, have at least a few hours of homework a night due the next day, and an hour or two of extra-curriculars. In university, they will have maybe 3-5 hours of actual class time on a given day and the remainder of the day is available for study time. Even if they do have 120 pages of reading, it will probably be over the course of 2 nights not overnight since most classes are every other day, and they will probably have a time other than dinner time to do it. For high achievers, in terms of just time management, I think high school is probably worse than college or grad school. As long as it doesn't compromise my ethics, I'm willing to do anything I can in the background to support my kids in their studies.