Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

Yes, that was the point! Even women with no kids. There just aren't the women advancing to the top ranks. A woman can do everything right, and as you said, those biases exist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.

Dumbass, if parents were independently wealthy and didn't need to earn money to live and support their kids, I'm sure we'd all choose not to work so hard.

But unlike DINKs, parents need to earn even more money for daycare, preschool, college, etc.

You sound like a typical immature person who lacks empathy and can't understand anything unless it is personally happening to you. You are what is wrong with America. I am happy you're not procreating so hopefully we'll have a few people like you in the future.

Seeing as nearly 90% of the population become parents, I'm tired of the childless thinking they are the only ones who get to advance in the work place. Having children and raising them right is important for our country so the more support parents get,t he better off we all are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

+1. It's also about treating men like they are also parents and responsible for household duties. And that it's not "wimpy" to do those things. Rethinking masculinity is an important part of the discussion as well.

Yep. Feminism is important for both sides of the equation -- giving women more opportunities to work and rejoin the workforce, and giving men opportunities to do traditionally "womanly" jobs without a requisite loss of status.

There is actually a great exchange on this in the West Wing between the "liberal" Sam and the blonde Republican aide Ainsley who says "women choose to have children" knowing full well the impact this would have on their careers and it is fair that they live with the consequences of that choice. They could choose to have the kids and not the career or vice versa. Further, there is not need for an ERA b/c the "same 14th Amendment that protects you protects me" and I am offended to think anyone would think otherwise and I "went to law school" just to make sure.

Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.

Dumbass, if parents were independently wealthy and didn't need to earn money to live and support their kids, I'm sure we'd all choose not to work so hard.

But unlike DINKs, parents need to earn even more money for daycare, preschool, college, etc.

You sound like a typical immature person who lacks empathy and can't understand anything unless it is personally happening to you. You are what is wrong with America. I am happy you're not procreating so hopefully we'll have a few people like you in the future.

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

+1. It's also about treating men like they are also parents and responsible for household duties. And that it's not "wimpy" to do those things. Rethinking masculinity is an important part of the discussion as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

That hasn't been my experience. I have exactly the same pay, status and accomplishments of my male coworkers. The falling behind will happen when I get pregnant and have to stop working 10 hour days (so I can actually see these kids!). In America we're so pro-corporation and fuck the individual. We work our asses off so that a corporation can make $$$ but when we want a family they're pissed off. I don't get overtime or paid for all the extra hours I put in. A little maternity leave and actually sticking to an 8 hour schedule would be nice.

You don't want to hear this, BUT -- its also harder when you a mid thirties mom than it is when you are a 20 something professional young woman. Much, much harder. Whereas your male counterparts start to get welcomed into the fold. I am in biglaw and I got all kinds of opportunities when I was young and had great shoes etc. Its an image thing for many of these companies. Also something that has to change. Accept older women.

+1 You need to know that this will happen to you even if you don't have kids, PP. You'll be discriminated against simply because MAYBE you MIGHT have kids and also, since almost everyone higher up is a man, they feel more comfortable promoting the guys. It sucks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to prioritize. This is nothing new. Take a different job, or career, or don't have kids, or have only one, live near family.... The possibilities are endless so choose one and make it work.

Exactly. So they need to stop telling women we can have it all. You just can't. Men can have it all.

No, you only think men can because of the idea that it's ok for men to be less involved in their family life if they make a big salary. DH has turned down jobs that would increase our HHI by 75K because it would mean he would work long hours and it wasn't worth it to him. It's a myth that all men can have it all (I say all men because there are some who care more about money than family )

Agree with this. DH is very unhappy that his work gets him home at 7:30pm, which means he gets about 20 minutes with the kids (bedtime stories, basically), PLUS he is on the outs at work for not working longer into the evening like most people (laywer) even though he works from home at night.

Just goes to show it's not a WOMEN problem, it's a PARENT problem. Parents need to stop being punished for having children (without which our economy will obviously not function, considering the importance of birth rate and economic growth/stability) by having sensible leave policies established and by the whole of the U.S. examining how rational it is to expect people to work 12-hour days (during which most employees probably accomplish little more than they would during an 8-hr day) or billable hours (a vestigial and terrible way to pay attorneys, if you ask me).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

That hasn't been my experience. I have exactly the same pay, status and accomplishments of my male coworkers. The falling behind will happen when I get pregnant and have to stop working 10 hour days (so I can actually see these kids!). In America we're so pro-corporation and fuck the individual. We work our asses off so that a corporation can make $$$ but when we want a family they're pissed off. I don't get overtime or paid for all the extra hours I put in. A little maternity leave and actually sticking to an 8 hour schedule would be nice.

You don't want to hear this, BUT -- its also harder when you a mid thirties mom than it is when you are a 20 something professional young woman. Much, much harder. Whereas your male counterparts start to get welcomed into the fold. I am in biglaw and I got all kinds of opportunities when I was young and had great shoes etc. Its an image thing for many of these companies. Also something that has to change. Accept older women.

I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to prioritize. This is nothing new. Take a different job, or career, or don't have kids, or have only one, live near family.... The possibilities are endless so choose one and make it work.

This. And I don't know why women think it's specific to them. These issues exist for men too (find me a guy who "has it all" career wise and is as an involved father/husband as they want to be). Yes, it's worse for women because so many think they should have it all, but the whole problem isn't specific to them.

I know many. In fact I would say almost all the professional fathers I know would fit this definition. Men have received and internalized vastly different messages about what it means to be enough of a father, and they often feel no guilt at all about being around late at night and on the weekends. Wake up and don't be ridiculous.

Exactly. And maybe it's because we expect more from women than men. If both "had it all" career wise, kids wouldn't get taken care of, household duties with fail etc. I think BOTH need to lean out. We need to start telling corporations and the government that work ends after 8 hours.

You go first.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to prioritize. This is nothing new. Take a different job, or career, or don't have kids, or have only one, live near family.... The possibilities are endless so choose one and make it work.

This. And I don't know why women think it's specific to them. These issues exist for men too (find me a guy who "has it all" career wise and is as an involved father/husband as they want to be). Yes, it's worse for women because so many think they should have it all, but the whole problem isn't specific to them.

I know many. In fact I would say almost all the professional fathers I know would fit this definition. Men have received and internalized vastly different messages about what it means to be enough of a father, and they often feel no guilt at all about being around late at night and on the weekends. Wake up and don't be ridiculous.

Exactly. And maybe it's because we expect more from women than men. If both "had it all" career wise, kids wouldn't get taken care of, household duties with fail etc. I think BOTH need to lean out. We need to start telling corporations and the government that work ends after 8 hours.

Some people are making the conscious decision to adjust their work/life balance. You just don't see it much in DC. I think part of that can be seen in the migration to smaller cities. People don't need the huge salaries to support themselves there and they aren't as caught up in material things. We made career decisions such that we are basically poor compared to our friends, but our life is low-stress and we are incredibly satisfied.

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/

That hasn't been my experience. I have exactly the same pay, status and accomplishments of my male coworkers. The falling behind will happen when I get pregnant and have to stop working 10 hour days (so I can actually see these kids!). In America we're so pro-corporation and fuck the individual. We work our asses off so that a corporation can make $$$ but when we want a family they're pissed off. I don't get overtime or paid for all the extra hours I put in. A little maternity leave and actually sticking to an 8 hour schedule would be nice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to prioritize. This is nothing new. Take a different job, or career, or don't have kids, or have only one, live near family.... The possibilities are endless so choose one and make it work.

Exactly. So they need to stop telling women we can have it all. You just can't. Men can have it all.

Only if you let them.

No they can't. Men are expected to spend less time with their children. Having it all means having a meaningful career AND spending a meaningful amount of time with your child(ren).

I think things will slowly change as women demand men do more at home when both partners are working full-time. As soon as working women aren't expected to do 90% of household and childcare duties AND work a full-time job, things will get better. The professional women I know are "leaning out" because there's no way to do everything. I see their men clean and change 1/2 the diapers, but they are making nearly all of the decisions and doing all of the meal prep, class sign up, child care arrangements, doctor appointments, holiday shopping, travel planning, etc. How are they supposed to become partner at that rate? There aren't enough hours in the day if they didn't even sleep at all.

Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/