Anonymous
11/29/2014 11:11
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:I would go absolutely crazy. We very minimally and organized (it's the only way to stay sane in a dualong income family). If we wanted to sell out hous, we could have it completely ready for an open house with 2 weeks notice. DH and I lived together for years before marriage. I would have never married a hoarder/slob. I bet he'd say the same thing.
Sorry, but I think you are screwed. A cluttered house is a reflection of a cluttered mind.
Sorry, but I think you are a jerk. A bitchy post is a reflection of a bitchy mind.
Anonymous
11/29/2014 10:31
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wow. I cannot imagine living w/a hoarder. And it seems when you try to help them out, by assisting them w/throwing out a thing or two (or ten!!), they seem to go almost homicidal. If anyone here has seen the show "Hoarders," you know what I mean. Families actually are being destroyed over people wanting others to throw useless object away. Sometimes the emotions get so heated that counselors have to jump in and start therapy sessions on the spot. It's so sad.
So as you can see, hoarding is a very serious issue OP and if you want to keep your marriage in tact, you must handle it very cautiously.
I would advise asking a neutral third party to intervene and talk to your wife about this. Perhaps if someone else addresses this issue w/your wife instead of you, she may listen and take it more seriously.
Do you have a mutual friend/neighbor/family member/church member, etc.?
This would be a great suggestion and an important first step.
It would be very careful about approaching a 3rd party that isn't a trained neutral 3rd party. I came to the realizations on my own with the push that my husband has a line with the state of the house (way less than his normal standards but better than my mom's house) that if crossed would mean marriage counseling but if my husband had asked a family member or friend to say something to me the embarrassment, shame, and feeling exposed to someone in a way that feels unequal (like Jane knows this about me, but I don't know any of Jane's problem) would have overshadowed the message. My sister tried to get an Aunt to intervene with my mom and my mom got very upset with my sister and aunt. At the end of the day it changed nothing and there was a spell with no one speaking. I don't know that the relationships fully recovered to the pre-intervention state.
I also agree about not just throwing things out. I have finally gotten to the point that I trust my husband to go thru old stuff and that he wouldn't throw out something I would keep. If he had just thrown things out before I was ready to make a change, that would have probably have caused me to hoard more and would not have helped me start to become an ally in fighting clutter. I'm not sure if I can explain my thinking clearly but to just throw things out means you are frustrated and trying to expedite things. It's like the person that does the quick thing, not necessarily the right thing to just be done. In that type of mood, how can I trust that the person won't just throw out everything including something that legitimately (by non-hoarding standards) should be kept or the boderline things that Im not ready to let go of yet. Then there is the trust that if you do this once, how often will this be done? Will I come home from work and surprise, you've thrown all my stuff out again without asking. Imagine of every so often someone else went thru your closet and donated your clothes and oops donated your favorite suit or decided you didn't need these papers or being extreme decided we really only need one car or should change your car. The loss of control ...of being able to make your own decisions and of knowing where and what you have would be startling. If you are holding onto things to begin with because it gives you a sense of control you can see how someone doing a stealth clean sweep is exactly the wrong approach.
So anyway, like so many things in life I really believe it starts with the mental mindset. I'm not sure how but your wife has to both realize the gravity of doing nothing and going down this path (your relationship, example for the kids, being able to have grandkids come over one day) and be willing to be introspective about why she needs 134 pairs of shoes (either on her own or with counseling). Until those two things happen, things like getting an organizer or just cleaning house will be a temporary fix or make the problems worse.
OP here. Thank you for the generosity of sharing your insights. There is alot to take in but I'm glad you pointed out the risk of just throwing things out. I used to think she was just messy - heck we all are on any given day. It was only recently that I have started to clue into the fact that she doesn't want to discard things that had me thinking there is something bigger going on. I have started to work on certain parts of the house. I am hopeful that as she sees how nice things are it'll will be motivation. That and I think the kids because she really is a very loving mom.
Anonymous
11/29/2014 09:49
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
My mom just basically had a break down after decades of living with my dad's hoarding. The stacks of newspapers were the worst. They'd been married forever at that point and she let him know it was "her turn." She gave him a room and outfitted it with full floor to ceiling shelving and file cabinets. By the time he was done with it, there was only barely room for a single comfy chair in the middle of a room piled high with books and papers.
But she was able to open up the rest of the house. She had to stay on guard, reminding him to move things from the dining room table, for example. I got her in touch with a great cleaning lady. Mom's biggest problem were the end tables, and that was a great thing, a very small issue after years of navigating his mess.
Sometimes it just comes down to basic fairness.
Anonymous
11/29/2014 09:33
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:Wow. I cannot imagine living w/a hoarder. And it seems when you try to help them out, by assisting them w/throwing out a thing or two (or ten!!), they seem to go almost homicidal. If anyone here has seen the show "Hoarders," you know what I mean. Families actually are being destroyed over people wanting others to throw useless object away. Sometimes the emotions get so heated that counselors have to jump in and start therapy sessions on the spot. It's so sad.
So as you can see, hoarding is a very serious issue OP and if you want to keep your marriage in tact, you must handle it very cautiously.
I would advise asking a neutral third party to intervene and talk to your wife about this. Perhaps if someone else addresses this issue w/your wife instead of you, she may listen and take it more seriously.
Do you have a mutual friend/neighbor/family member/church member, etc.?
This would be a great suggestion and an important first step.
It would be very careful about approaching a 3rd party that isn't a trained neutral 3rd party. I came to the realizations on my own with the push that my husband has a line with the state of the house (way less than his normal standards but better than my mom's house) that if crossed would mean marriage counseling but if my husband had asked a family member or friend to say something to me the embarrassment, shame, and feeling exposed to someone in a way that feels unequal (like Jane knows this about me, but I don't know any of Jane's problem) would have overshadowed the message. My sister tried to get an Aunt to intervene with my mom and my mom got very upset with my sister and aunt. At the end of the day it changed nothing and there was a spell with no one speaking. I don't know that the relationships fully recovered to the pre-intervention state.
I also agree about not just throwing things out. I have finally gotten to the point that I trust my husband to go thru old stuff and that he wouldn't throw out something I would keep. If he had just thrown things out before I was ready to make a change, that would have probably have caused me to hoard more and would not have helped me start to become an ally in fighting clutter. I'm not sure if I can explain my thinking clearly but to just throw things out means you are frustrated and trying to expedite things. It's like the person that does the quick thing, not necessarily the right thing to just be done. In that type of mood, how can I trust that the person won't just throw out everything including something that legitimately (by non-hoarding standards) should be kept or the boderline things that Im not ready to let go of yet. Then there is the trust that if you do this once, how often will this be done? Will I come home from work and surprise, you've thrown all my stuff out again without asking. Imagine of every so often someone else went thru your closet and donated your clothes and oops donated your favorite suit or decided you didn't need these papers or being extreme decided we really only need one car or should change your car. The loss of control ...of being able to make your own decisions and of knowing where and what you have would be startling. If you are holding onto things to begin with because it gives you a sense of control you can see how someone doing a stealth clean sweep is exactly the wrong approach.
So anyway, like so many things in life I really believe it starts with the mental mindset. I'm not sure how but your wife has to both realize the gravity of doing nothing and going down this path (your relationship, example for the kids, being able to have grandkids come over one day) and be willing to be introspective about why she needs 134 pairs of shoes (either on her own or with counseling). Until those two things happen, things like getting an organizer or just cleaning house will be a temporary fix or make the problems worse.
Anonymous
11/29/2014 05:15
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Wow. I cannot imagine living w/a hoarder. And it seems when you try to help them out, by assisting them w/throwing out a thing or two (or ten!!), they seem to go almost homicidal. If anyone here has seen the show "Hoarders," you know what I mean. Families actually are being destroyed over people wanting others to throw useless object away. Sometimes the emotions get so heated that counselors have to jump in and start therapy sessions on the spot. It's so sad.
So as you can see, hoarding is a very serious issue OP and if you want to keep your marriage in tact, you must handle it very cautiously.
I would advise asking a neutral third party to intervene and talk to your wife about this. Perhaps if someone else addresses this issue w/your wife instead of you, she may listen and take it more seriously.
Do you have a mutual friend/neighbor/family member/church member, etc.?
This would be a great suggestion and an important first step.
So as you can see, hoarding is a very serious issue OP and if you want to keep your marriage in tact, you must handle it very cautiously.
I would advise asking a neutral third party to intervene and talk to your wife about this. Perhaps if someone else addresses this issue w/your wife instead of you, she may listen and take it more seriously.
Do you have a mutual friend/neighbor/family member/church member, etc.?
This would be a great suggestion and an important first step.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 19:59
Subject: Re:Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
I agree with what most of the PP have said. My Mom is borderline hoarder and her siblings are pack rats and I inherited that gene. Just based on a visit to my mom's house when we were engaged, my DH said early on that he wouldn't divorce me if I got to that point but we would have to go to counseling because he couldn't live like that. In the back of my mind, I know there is a boundary and if I get to that point where it's that bad and I won't get help for myself, I have to realize that would ruin my marriage.
I also remember what it was like never being able to have friends visit because the house was always a horrible mess. My kids can never stay over at grandma's house because of the state of the house. The weird thing is it never really clicked for me to examine why I held onto things until I had my Oprah moment when there was an episode on hoarding with Peter Walsh talking about the why behind it. The funny thing is I rarely watch Oprah so I think a higher power wanted me to see that episode. I started reading his book "It's All Too Much". I won't pretend that I don't still struggle but I'm not afraid to throw things out anymore. In the beginning I had to tell myself things like "if I hold onto the past I won't leave room for the future" as I threw out the receipt from 10 years ago that I worried I may need some day. Now my issue is having a routine so things don't pile up for these big clean ups.
I also probably have ADHD and do get easily distracted so that doesn't help. So anyway, I think it starts with mindset. Wife has to be willing to hear the message. I second watching hoarders (I do it to get motivated) and maybe if you can find the Oprah episode (below is the where are they now on the episode that opened my eyes) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/hoarder-oprah-show_n_4005719.html. Mention counseling if she isn't willing to confront this on her own. Hiring a professional organizer to help he go thru things and set up systems would be helpful just from the standpoint of where do I start but she has to be willing to see things thrown out or donated.
I also remember what it was like never being able to have friends visit because the house was always a horrible mess. My kids can never stay over at grandma's house because of the state of the house. The weird thing is it never really clicked for me to examine why I held onto things until I had my Oprah moment when there was an episode on hoarding with Peter Walsh talking about the why behind it. The funny thing is I rarely watch Oprah so I think a higher power wanted me to see that episode. I started reading his book "It's All Too Much". I won't pretend that I don't still struggle but I'm not afraid to throw things out anymore. In the beginning I had to tell myself things like "if I hold onto the past I won't leave room for the future" as I threw out the receipt from 10 years ago that I worried I may need some day. Now my issue is having a routine so things don't pile up for these big clean ups.
I also probably have ADHD and do get easily distracted so that doesn't help. So anyway, I think it starts with mindset. Wife has to be willing to hear the message. I second watching hoarders (I do it to get motivated) and maybe if you can find the Oprah episode (below is the where are they now on the episode that opened my eyes) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/hoarder-oprah-show_n_4005719.html. Mention counseling if she isn't willing to confront this on her own. Hiring a professional organizer to help he go thru things and set up systems would be helpful just from the standpoint of where do I start but she has to be willing to see things thrown out or donated.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 18:56
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would go absolutely crazy. We very minimally and organized (it's the only way to stay sane in a dualong income family). If we wanted to sell out hous, we could have it completely ready for an open house with 2 weeks notice. DH and I lived together for years before marriage. I would have never married a hoarder/slob. I bet he'd say the same thing.
Sorry, but I think you are screwed. A cluttered house is a reflection of a cluttered mind.
Humblebrag and not helpful.
OP here - thought the same thing especially in light of all the helpful and supportive notes I have received.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 18:47
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Ditto the organizer. If she can't get it together, lay down the lay and tell her there WILL be a house cleaner for the common areas and bathrooms, non-negotiable
Anonymous
11/28/2014 18:41
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:I would go absolutely crazy. We very minimally and organized (it's the only way to stay sane in a dualong income family). If we wanted to sell out hous, we could have it completely ready for an open house with 2 weeks notice. DH and I lived together for years before marriage. I would have never married a hoarder/slob. I bet he'd say the same thing.
Sorry, but I think you are screwed. A cluttered house is a reflection of a cluttered mind.
Humblebrag and not helpful.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 18:38
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
I would go absolutely crazy. We very minimally and organized (it's the only way to stay sane in a dualong income family). If we wanted to sell out hous, we could have it completely ready for an open house with 2 weeks notice. DH and I lived together for years before marriage. I would have never married a hoarder/slob. I bet he'd say the same thing.
Sorry, but I think you are screwed. A cluttered house is a reflection of a cluttered mind.
Sorry, but I think you are screwed. A cluttered house is a reflection of a cluttered mind.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 17:55
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:She is a hoarder, OP. You are right about why she doesn't want a cleaning lady. It is a mental illness and probably only one aspect of her mental issues. She is likely narcissistic as well and has boundary issues, a lot of hoarders do.
I grew up like this. My mom was/is a hoarder. A couple of things: her hoarding issues are going to be hard if not impossible to treat, but that doesn't mean your daughters are doomed. I was a mess when I was at home because I didn't know any better but once I moved out I learned proper cleaning habits and I've never lived like that again.
You are going to have to decide how you want to live. She will probably never change.
OP here. Can you please help me understand your take on her potential "boundary issues" ? Thank you.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 17:49
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
I am PP above and I meant to add that if your house is so bad that you live with doorbell dread (not letting people come over), believe me, that's difficult for the kids. It took me a long time to get over it as an adult.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 17:49
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
I'm so sorry you have to deal with this, OP.
Your wife probably has ADHD too and has difficulty getting things organized (plus hoarding tendencies). We are an ADHD family and struggle with this. My DH is the worst, but since he works and I stay home, I do my best to tidy up and clean, and hope to goodness the kids will learn from my efforts.
I think you need an intervention by a professional home organizer - there are plenty in the area and I sometimes fantasize about hiring one! However, I know exactly what I need to do in my case - sort, throw out half the stuff, and buy appropriate furniture to store the remainder (bookshelves with baskets, and stuff like that). The problem is persuading DH to manage his stuff, and gathering my courage, and time, to sort through the rest.
If she is resistant to the professional, I would take her to couples therapy and say that this is your last condition before a separation, because you worry about the poor example she is showing to your children.
And I also agree that you could watch Hoarders with her and the girls.
Your wife probably has ADHD too and has difficulty getting things organized (plus hoarding tendencies). We are an ADHD family and struggle with this. My DH is the worst, but since he works and I stay home, I do my best to tidy up and clean, and hope to goodness the kids will learn from my efforts.
I think you need an intervention by a professional home organizer - there are plenty in the area and I sometimes fantasize about hiring one! However, I know exactly what I need to do in my case - sort, throw out half the stuff, and buy appropriate furniture to store the remainder (bookshelves with baskets, and stuff like that). The problem is persuading DH to manage his stuff, and gathering my courage, and time, to sort through the rest.
If she is resistant to the professional, I would take her to couples therapy and say that this is your last condition before a separation, because you worry about the poor example she is showing to your children.
And I also agree that you could watch Hoarders with her and the girls.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 17:49
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
Anonymous wrote:Bigger house with more closets and love her for who she is.
When I was younger I did think that - well that and alot of builtins. Our house is quite large - double the size of most McMansions. We have built in linen cabinets, built in closets, there is a built in for everything. We don't want for a lack of space nor built ins. Classical problem - you fill the spaces with all the crap you don't need/use and then the regular stuff gets thrown on the counters/floors. I explain I built your closet to house 110 pairs of shoes - now you have double where do they go ?
Its a volume/consumption problem coupled with the fact that she doesn't like to throw out.
Anonymous
11/28/2014 17:39
Subject: Wife doesn't want cleaning lady
She is a hoarder, OP. You are right about why she doesn't want a cleaning lady. It is a mental illness and probably only one aspect of her mental issues. She is likely narcissistic as well and has boundary issues, a lot of hoarders do.
I grew up like this. My mom was/is a hoarder. A couple of things: her hoarding issues are going to be hard if not impossible to treat, but that doesn't mean your daughters are doomed. I was a mess when I was at home because I didn't know any better but once I moved out I learned proper cleaning habits and I've never lived like that again.
You are going to have to decide how you want to live. She will probably never change.
I grew up like this. My mom was/is a hoarder. A couple of things: her hoarding issues are going to be hard if not impossible to treat, but that doesn't mean your daughters are doomed. I was a mess when I was at home because I didn't know any better but once I moved out I learned proper cleaning habits and I've never lived like that again.
You are going to have to decide how you want to live. She will probably never change.