Anonymous wrote:

I don't think that we're disagreeing about the meaning of the word "completed". It's just that I think it's possible to completely glaze 1/2 of a pot or completely fill 1/3 of a tray.

I'd argue that we are entirely disagreeing about the meaning of the word "completed".

The original question asked "How many glazed pots can you complete?"

In my understanding of the word "complete" in the above sentence, "complete" means finish completely, 100%. The pot is completely, 100% glazed. The pot is the unit that must be completely glazed. 100% of the unit (pot) must be covered in glaze, for the pot to be considered "complete".
This is the definition of "complete" as I understand it.

In your understanding, "complete" doesn't mean "finish" a unit. If you paint 1/100th of the unit, (the pot), you say, you have "completed" that 1/100th piece. This definition of complete would seem to me to make the word complete quite meaningless because you would always have to specify what fraction of the pot you have accomplished, when you use the word completed. I would not use the word "completed" to mean 1/100th of a pot has been glazed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have completed 4 1/2 pots, or you have completed 6 1/3 trays.

But I agree that this has nothing to do with the Common Core standards.

You have GLAZED 4.5 pots. You have COMPLETED 4 pots.

You have FILLED 6 1/3 trays. You can SELL 6 trays (because a tray needs to be filled to be sold, as per the instructions.)

I don't think "completed" means what you think it means.

I don't think that we're disagreeing about the meaning of the word "completed". It's just that I think it's possible to completely glaze 1/2 of a pot or completely fill 1/3 of a tray.

Anonymous wrote:You have completed 4 1/2 pots, or you have completed 6 1/3 trays.

But I agree that this has nothing to do with the Common Core standards.

You have GLAZED 4.5 pots. You have COMPLETED 4 pots.

You have FILLED 6 1/3 trays. You can SELL 6 trays (because a tray needs to be filled to be sold, as per the instructions.)

I don't think "completed" means what you think it means.

You have completed 4 1/2 pots, or you have completed 6 1/3 trays.

But I agree that this has nothing to do with the Common Core standards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter has probably done MANY practice problems like the one you shared and should know to go to the most exact answer. I understand where you are coming from, but she can complete 4.5 pots, not just 4. In my class today (compacted 5/6), one question asked if a child earns $5.50 per hour babysitting, how many hours would it take to earn $52.25. One of the children answered 10 hours with the same reasoning you gave above, so we discussed why that was not the most accurate response. Like it or not, this is what is now expected from the children.

I'd agree except for the way the word "complete" was used in the problem. In your example, if the question was, "Larla is paid $5.50 for each completed hour of babysitting. How many hours would it take to earn $52.25?" I'd answer 10.

Answering 10 on the question given would have been incorrect, which is my point. The OP's child has done examples like this with similar wording. Although it might sound strange, parts of pots and parts of hours need to be considered in determining the most accurate answer. Half of a pot can be completed and should be included.

This must be some strange new definition of the term "completed".

If I come to your place of business and give you 5 pots to glaze, please.... and you only have enough glaze to cover 4.5 pots.... have you completed 4 pots? Or 4.5 pots?

If I come up to pick up my pots I will only be paying for the 4 completed pots. I will not be paying you half for the half job you did on the 5th pot. That pot was not completed.

It was glazed. If the question were "how many pots can have glaze on them" then I can see an answer of 4.5. But the term "completed" means something in the English language. I don't think this is a Common Core issue. In fact many math problems ask exactly this type of "real world" question, for example:

Jen has 38 oranges. She needs to fill trays completely with the oranges in order to put them up for sale. Each tray will hold 6 oranges. How many trays can she sell?

The answer is 6 trays, not 6 and 1/3 trays.

OP, you said she did go to the teacher. What did the teacher say? If the teacher gave her the points, then this really is a non-issue, and it's time to move on.
If the teacher didn't give her the points, then yeah.... I'd be annoyed.
Clearly the answer is 4. You can complete 4 pots.
Common core doesn't get to change standard written english and vocabulary. And learning to answer the question asked - not just rote response of "we've seen questions like these so I guess that's what the teacher wants" - is an important skill as well. Kudos to your daughter for carefully and correctly reading the question and answering it.

Anonymous wrote:You have to answer in the context of whatever they were studying at the time. Probably fractions and decimals. In this context, one can expect an exact answer, as a simple "4" sounds like a third grade material.

That is complete nonsense. Fractions and decimals were in the question, so yes they were studying fractions and decimals. However that has no effect on the answer to the question. The question was hoe many pots could be completed. If the question had been how many pots could be glazed, I would accept an answer of 4 and a half pots could be glazed. However how many pots can be completed means how many pots can be completely glazed, meaning can be glazed with the 1/3 cup of glaze which is what was stated as the requirement for glazing a pot completely.

The answer is 4, and it doesn't matter whether the kids are studying fractions, decimals, percents, or pot glazing.

You have to answer in the context of whatever they were studying at the time. Probably fractions and decimals. In this context, one can expect an exact answer, as a simple "4" sounds like a third grade material.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:grade grubbers

Why? For reviewing DC's graded assignments to keep tabs on how well our children are doing as students?
For noticing a question where the corrected answer doesn't make sense to us?
For suggesting that the DD talk to the teacher to clarify her understanding of the question -- i.e. when asking for "complete" items does that mean round to the immediately preceding whole number, or still give the decimal answer.
For wanting to make sure that our DC's work is marked correctly, that they understand why they missed the problems that they missed and how to do better next time? For wanting to make sure our DC receive the grade their work earns if indeed the teacher did make a mistake when marking the problem incorrect?

What of this makes us grade grubbers instead of good, involved parents who value our DC's education?

the teacher worded the question sloppily. the kid missed a point. but kid learned the material. why grub for a point. If it is about learning, hooray - teacher and kid did a great job (teacher taught and kid learned). Why grub for a point? If this was my kid, I'd say, "oh, this is what the teacher meant by 'complete,' so yes, you were right" (yay, your answer showed you learned!) and be done. You do know education is about learning right, not grades. Grades are just a sign of learning. Sure you can point out to the teacher that she worded the question sloppily and get your point back, but why? I suppose if there is a pattern of sloppyily worded questions you'll have to bring it up with her so she can stop writing sloppily worded questions, but if it is just one, why? Answer: you are a grade grubber.

If the kid's answer was wrong, it makes sense to talk to the teacher to clarify how such questions are to be interpreted in the future. If the kid's answer was correct, then ethically and practically the kid should have that point. Why is it bad to receive the grade your work has earned? Why the disdain (calling people "grade grubbers") for those who wish their work to be marked fairly and correctly? Are you teaching your kid to just accept when someone in authority makes an honest mistake that is to their detriment? Because I would prefer that my child learn the polite and constructive way to have a conversation that will determine whether or not there was a mistake in assessment, and if there was to get it corrected.

It's not the size of the error (i.e. only one point) it's the principal of the matter (one's work into which one has put time and effort should be fairly assessed and given the credit it has earned) and the learning opportunity (how to handle a small potential mistake by a middle school teacher, so the child learns what to do when in the future it's a more significant concern over a grade such as on a high school or university level major exam).

1) It is clear how such questiosn are to be interpreted in the future. 2) How about teaching your child to pick her battles. There are things worth fighting for and things not. This is espeically true in a work situation. Believe me, I work with people who endlessly demand tiny errors be corrected "on principle." These people are not doing their careers any favors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:grade grubbers

Why? For reviewing DC's graded assignments to keep tabs on how well our children are doing as students?
For noticing a question where the corrected answer doesn't make sense to us?
For suggesting that the DD talk to the teacher to clarify her understanding of the question -- i.e. when asking for "complete" items does that mean round to the immediately preceding whole number, or still give the decimal answer.
For wanting to make sure that our DC's work is marked correctly, that they understand why they missed the problems that they missed and how to do better next time? For wanting to make sure our DC receive the grade their work earns if indeed the teacher did make a mistake when marking the problem incorrect?

What of this makes us grade grubbers instead of good, involved parents who value our DC's education?

the teacher worded the question sloppily. the kid missed a point. but kid learned the material. why grub for a point. If it is about learning, hooray - teacher and kid did a great job (teacher taught and kid learned). Why grub for a point? If this was my kid, I'd say, "oh, this is what the teacher meant by 'complete,' so yes, you were right" (yay, your answer showed you learned!) and be done. You do know education is about learning right, not grades. Grades are just a sign of learning. Sure you can point out to the teacher that she worded the question sloppily and get your point back, but why? I suppose if there is a pattern of sloppyily worded questions you'll have to bring it up with her so she can stop writing sloppily worded questions, but if it is just one, why? Answer: you are a grade grubber.

If the kid's answer was wrong, it makes sense to talk to the teacher to clarify how such questions are to be interpreted in the future. If the kid's answer was correct, then ethically and practically the kid should have that point. Why is it bad to receive the grade your work has earned? Why the disdain (calling people "grade grubbers") for those who wish their work to be marked fairly and correctly? Are you teaching your kid to just accept when someone in authority makes an honest mistake that is to their detriment? Because I would prefer that my child learn the polite and constructive way to have a conversation that will determine whether or not there was a mistake in assessment, and if there was to get it corrected.

It's not the size of the error (i.e. only one point) it's the principal of the matter (one's work into which one has put time and effort should be fairly assessed and given the credit it has earned) and the learning opportunity (how to handle a small potential mistake by a middle school teacher, so the child learns what to do when in the future it's a more significant concern over a grade such as on a high school or university level major exam).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:grade grubbers

Why? For reviewing DC's graded assignments to keep tabs on how well our children are doing as students?
For noticing a question where the corrected answer doesn't make sense to us?
For suggesting that the DD talk to the teacher to clarify her understanding of the question -- i.e. when asking for "complete" items does that mean round to the immediately preceding whole number, or still give the decimal answer.
For wanting to make sure that our DC's work is marked correctly, that they understand why they missed the problems that they missed and how to do better next time? For wanting to make sure our DC receive the grade their work earns if indeed the teacher did make a mistake when marking the problem incorrect?

What of this makes us grade grubbers instead of good, involved parents who value our DC's education?

the teacher worded the question sloppily. the kid missed a point. but kid learned the material. why grub for a point. If it is about learning, hooray - teacher and kid did a great job (teacher taught and kid learned). Why grub for a point? If this was my kid, I'd say, "oh, this is what the teacher meant by 'complete,' so yes, you were right" (yay, your answer showed you learned!) and be done. You do know education is about learning right, not grades. Grades are just a sign of learning. Sure you can point out to the teacher that she worded the question sloppily and get your point back, but why? I suppose if there is a pattern of sloppyily worded questions you'll have to bring it up with her so she can stop writing sloppily worded questions, but if it is just one, why? Answer: you are a grade grubber.

Anonymous wrote:grade grubbers

Why? For reviewing DC's graded assignments to keep tabs on how well our children are doing as students?
For noticing a question where the corrected answer doesn't make sense to us?
For suggesting that the DD talk to the teacher to clarify her understanding of the question -- i.e. when asking for "complete" items does that mean round to the immediately preceding whole number, or still give the decimal answer.
For wanting to make sure that our DC's work is marked correctly, that they understand why they missed the problems that they missed and how to do better next time? For wanting to make sure our DC receive the grade their work earns if indeed the teacher did make a mistake when marking the problem incorrect?

What of this makes us grade grubbers instead of good, involved parents who value our DC's education?

grade grubbers

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Half a pot is by definition not a complete pot. I am teaching my children to be careful and exact in their use of language precisely to avoid such misunderstandings. Precision of language, please! At 6th grade I would definitely encourage DD to discuss her reasoning with the teacher to (1) try to recover the point and (2) determine whether the teacher intended to word the question in this way so that DD could tailor her understanding of the expectations in this teacher's class such that she would not miss future problems by over-analyzing the language of the question.

Yes, but it is possible to complete the glazing of half of a pot.

You haven't completed anything if a pot is sitting there half un-glazed. That would be like my kid claiming to have completed the cleaning of half of the toilet or taking out half the trash in the bin. Utterly nonsensical and meaningless. This is a ridiculous argument and a poorly worded question.

I get the mathematical concept it's trying to demonstrate, but if I had this question on an exam, now or when I was in school, I would automatically think it was a question designed to test not only my mathematical calculations but also my reasoning skills. Thus, while my work would show the answer of 4.5 I would write down 4 as a final answer because no other answer makes sense given the wording. We had several of these types of questions throughout my years as a student, and we were always expected to realize when it did or did not make sense to have an answer that is a fraction. That's part of basic number sense. In this case, I firmly dispute the idea that 4.5 is a reasonable answer given the exact phrasing of the question. Again, I would encourage DD to seek clarification with her teacher. Maybe the teacher will say to always give the exact answer and disregard practicalities, maybe that was part of the instructions for this assignment and DD missed that, or maybe the teacher didn't intend to write an ambiguously worded question but agrees that DD's reasoning makes sense.