I thought they closed this school.

Folk, please read the articles!!! Stop using this case to make a different point. Stick to the facts of this situation. Nobody used any force or coercion.

Anonymous wrote:

13:25 here -- Oh, I would absolutely agree she should be fired, it's an appalling lack of judgment on her part (assuming she consented; I haven't seen anything to suggest the student assaulted her, but I suppose it's a possibility).

I was thinking not so much of the legal/employment aspects and more in terms of the human impact on the student. This just seems like a less horrible/damaging event than most other instances that make the news.

Why do you keep suggesting it wasn't consensual? Did you read any of the articles? When he asked if she was kinky she texted him back something along the lines of I'm a shower not a teller.

Anonymous wrote:13:50 again. Would we even be discussing "consent" in any meaningful way if it had been a male teacher and female student? I doubt it. I suspect we'd all be talking about how the teacher should be buried under the prison.

no, for me is not the gender, is the age of those involved (and just to clarify, this was an awful act on the part of the teacher). but the people here are 17 and 22, if the male teacher was 22 and the female student was 17 I would think the same thing (this is bad, but not something the teacher should be buried in prison for, especially if the teacher was a substitute with no experience and it was the first day of school, so not a situation where a teacher can "groom" a young student for abuse). situations were teachers should be buried in prison are when the teacher is 35 and the child is 12 regardless of gender. do you remember years ago that female teacher, married with kids in her late 30's who get pregnant with her 11 or so male student, and then got pregnant again with a second one violating a court order. She went to prison and I do not remember people being particularly kids to her (and rightly so, that was sexual abuse of a child, even if the child "loved" her and later they got married)

as for whether the student forced her (big guy who pressure/force shy inexperienced female substitute teacher to have oral sex so he can boast with football team members), I am not sure but this was the first day of school, and the first day of school was a long time ago. if the teacher was forced or scared into performing oral sex in the student, she had ample time to report it. if she did not, that something that weighs against rape. let's see what the investigation comes up with

anyway, a classmate of my dad was a female substitute teacher at 22, and she got pregnant and married her 18 old male student in his last year of high-school (white, well educated middle class families involved, this was back to around 1965 so it was not an easy situation). they are still married with two grown up kids. I am pretty sure they did not have sex in class though on the first day of school. my father's female cousin, at 18 and in her last year of high-school fell in love with her 23 old male teacher and they got married (her family was not thrilled when they found out about the story, they got over it later) around 1969, and they also are still married and grandparents. the average age of my HS teachers was 55, so I had no hope. my HS experience was also very boring

Anonymous wrote:
However, I also made the comparison to the Horace Mann abuse case -- in that case, the victims were all boys; the difference is the teachers weren't first-day subs but esteemed employees. So I don't think gender is the only thing at play here.

When you bring up this case, could you please add "(in New York)"? We have a Horace Mann here and not everyone is an expert on NYC elementary schools.

Anonymous wrote:The original article mentioned the student's football jersey number. Very bad on WaPo for doing that. Probably illegal since that made it easy to identify the minor. They've removed the number from the article but I'm sure many people saw it (as I did).

I was referencing this WaPo article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/substitute-teacher-at-dc-charter-school-charged-with-having-sex-with-student/2014/10/22/5eae0c30-5a08-11e4-b812-38518ae74c67_story.html

The following paragraph:
The court document says the student asked for a number of sexual liaisons to match the number on his football jersey.

The original article then listed the number. Don't worry Jeff, I won't say the number on DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see many people posting comments of surprise and shock that the teacher would exhibit such bad judgment. Other people commenting on how big 17yo student was, and what he told other students about the encounter. I'm a little surprised there is not more OUTRAGE against the teacher. This is a 22yo teacher having sex with a 17yo student. Why is that not viewed as completely offensive? I'm guessing the lack of high outrage here is because the more common male-female roles are reversed.

If this had been a 22yo male substitute teacher caught having sex with a 17yo female student, would people be more outraged?

You're right, there's a double standard. I believe that in some instances a double standard is justified. It's easy for me to believe a 17-year-old football player could physically intimidate a 22-year-old woman; it's harder for me to believe a 17-year-old girl -- even a very athletic one -- would be likely to intimidate a 22-year-old man.

However, I also made the comparison to the Horace Mann abuse case -- in that case, the victims were all boys; the difference is the teachers weren't first-day subs but esteemed employees. So I don't think gender is the only thing at play here.

The original article mentioned the student's football jersey number. Very bad on WaPo for doing that. Probably illegal since that made it easy to identify the minor. They've removed the number from the article but I'm sure many people saw it (as I did).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First day on the job and you bang a student?

Guess she offers extra credit?


I can't open the articles, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of force on his part? A 17-year old boy can be pretty strong.

There does not seem to be a suggestion of force. Apparently she gave him oral behind the teachers desk in the classroom while he recorded it.

Was it legal to record it? That seems to be almost as troubling to me.

NP - I gotta believe that you're joking about being almost as troubled by whether it was legal for the student to record it or not... you are joking, right? A teacher (regardless of whether she's 5 years or 25 years older than the student) has the ridiculously awful and unethical judgement to engage in a sex act with a student... IN A CLASSROOM... and you're saying the question of whether the student was legal in taping it or not is a big question?

Another NP here -- I do think it makes some difference that she was a sub on her first day -- someone in that position doesn't carry the authority that a regular teacher/coach does. And she could, in fact, have been physically smaller than the student (I haven't watched anything, so I don't know one way or the other), which also shifts the balance of power between the two.

Not saying this lets her off the hook -- it's still terribly unprofessional and I would guess illegal -- but I don't think it's quite as egregious as if a respected teacher of longstanding pressures a student into sex (as at Horace Mann, for example).

You're free to feel however you want about it, but your basis for not seeing it as a big deal is wrong wrong and wrong. ANYONE who has gone through the approval process for entering a school building and delivering instruction, whether it is as a sub, new permanent teacher, whatever, has been through enough trianing and should have enough common sense to know this is not only illegal, but will get you fired in a hot second. The teacher - student releationship is not some ambiguous thing that has grey areas on this. It is equally egregious whether this is a brand new sub or a longstanding teacher. A long standing teacher may understand the reality of the consequences better, but no way no how did this sub not learn during the course of being screened and trained that having sex with a student is a no-no.

Same PP - I do agree that there is a difference in "egregiousness" if the teacher initiated and pressured the student or forced the student. But even allegedly consensual or even if the student pressures the teacher, the teacher knows it's a major major NO WAY move and any engagement at all is grounds for a lawsuit and firing. I have examples of much less clear or egregious actions that the teacher got raked across the coals for, and even though too FEW teachers are held accountable for obvious bad behavior, something like this is very black and white in terms of where the lines are.

13:25 here -- Oh, I would absolutely agree she should be fired, it's an appalling lack of judgment on her part (assuming she consented; I haven't seen anything to suggest the student assaulted her, but I suppose it's a possibility).

I was thinking not so much of the legal/employment aspects and more in terms of the human impact on the student. This just seems like a less horrible/damaging event than most other instances that make the news.

13:50 again. Would we even be discussing "consent" in any meaningful way if it had been a male teacher and female student? I doubt it. I suspect we'd all be talking about how the teacher should be buried under the prison.

NP. I see many people posting comments of surprise and shock that the teacher would exhibit such bad judgment. Other people commenting on how big 17yo student was, and what he told other students about the encounter. I'm a little surprised there is not more OUTRAGE against the teacher. This is a 22yo teacher having sex with a 17yo student. Why is that not viewed as completely offensive? I'm guessing the lack of high outrage here is because the more common male-female roles are reversed.

If this had been a 22yo male substitute teacher caught having sex with a 17yo female student, would people be more outraged?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First day on the job and you bang a student?

Guess she offers extra credit?


I can't open the articles, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of force on his part? A 17-year old boy can be pretty strong.

There does not seem to be a suggestion of force. Apparently she gave him oral behind the teachers desk in the classroom while he recorded it.

Was it legal to record it? That seems to be almost as troubling to me.

NP - I gotta believe that you're joking about being almost as troubled by whether it was legal for the student to record it or not... you are joking, right? A teacher (regardless of whether she's 5 years or 25 years older than the student) has the ridiculously awful and unethical judgement to engage in a sex act with a student... IN A CLASSROOM... and you're saying the question of whether the student was legal in taping it or not is a big question?

Another NP here -- I do think it makes some difference that she was a sub on her first day -- someone in that position doesn't carry the authority that a regular teacher/coach does. And she could, in fact, have been physically smaller than the student (I haven't watched anything, so I don't know one way or the other), which also shifts the balance of power between the two.

Not saying this lets her off the hook -- it's still terribly unprofessional and I would guess illegal -- but I don't think it's quite as egregious as if a respected teacher of longstanding pressures a student into sex (as at Horace Mann, for example).

You're free to feel however you want about it, but your basis for not seeing it as a big deal is wrong wrong and wrong. ANYONE who has gone through the approval process for entering a school building and delivering instruction, whether it is as a sub, new permanent teacher, whatever, has been through enough trianing and should have enough common sense to know this is not only illegal, but will get you fired in a hot second. The teacher - student releationship is not some ambiguous thing that has grey areas on this. It is equally egregious whether this is a brand new sub or a longstanding teacher. A long standing teacher may understand the reality of the consequences better, but no way no how did this sub not learn during the course of being screened and trained that having sex with a student is a no-no.

Same PP - I do agree that there is a difference in "egregiousness" if the teacher initiated and pressured the student or forced the student. But even allegedly consensual or even if the student pressures the teacher, the teacher knows it's a major major NO WAY move and any engagement at all is grounds for a lawsuit and firing. I have examples of much less clear or egregious actions that the teacher got raked across the coals for, and even though too FEW teachers are held accountable for obvious bad behavior, something like this is very black and white in terms of where the lines are.

He is 17, so below the age of consent I believe. Her age doesn't matter as long as she is 18 or older. The interesting thing is, if they were both 17 he could have be prosecuted for distributing child pornography by sharing it. In fact I am sure he still could be but I don't think he is likely to press charges against himself.

She must have been really into it, not to realize he was filming her. This is nothing short of VERY POOR JUDGEMENT. What could this woman be thinking? I don't get it. We of course all know what he was thinking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First day on the job and you bang a student?

Guess she offers extra credit?


I can't open the articles, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of force on his part? A 17-year old boy can be pretty strong.

There does not seem to be a suggestion of force. Apparently she gave him oral behind the teachers desk in the classroom while he recorded it.

Was it legal to record it? That seems to be almost as troubling to me.

NP - I gotta believe that you're joking about being almost as troubled by whether it was legal for the student to record it or not... you are joking, right? A teacher (regardless of whether she's 5 years or 25 years older than the student) has the ridiculously awful and unethical judgement to engage in a sex act with a student... IN A CLASSROOM... and you're saying the question of whether the student was legal in taping it or not is a big question?

Another NP here -- I do think it makes some difference that she was a sub on her first day -- someone in that position doesn't carry the authority that a regular teacher/coach does. And she could, in fact, have been physically smaller than the student (I haven't watched anything, so I don't know one way or the other), which also shifts the balance of power between the two.

Not saying this lets her off the hook -- it's still terribly unprofessional and I would guess illegal -- but I don't think it's quite as egregious as if a respected teacher of longstanding pressures a student into sex (as at Horace Mann, for example).

You're free to feel however you want about it, but your basis for not seeing it as a big deal is wrong wrong and wrong. ANYONE who has gone through the approval process for entering a school building and delivering instruction, whether it is as a sub, new permanent teacher, whatever, has been through enough trianing and should have enough common sense to know this is not only illegal, but will get you fired in a hot second. The teacher - student releationship is not some ambiguous thing that has grey areas on this. It is equally egregious whether this is a brand new sub or a longstanding teacher. A long standing teacher may understand the reality of the consequences better, but no way no how did this sub not learn during the course of being screened and trained that having sex with a student is a no-no.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First day on the job and you bang a student?

Guess she offers extra credit?


I can't open the articles, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of force on his part? A 17-year old boy can be pretty strong.

There does not seem to be a suggestion of force. Apparently she gave him oral behind the teachers desk in the classroom while he recorded it.

Was it legal to record it? That seems to be almost as troubling to me.

NP - I gotta believe that you're joking about being almost as troubled by whether it was legal for the student to record it or not... you are joking, right? A teacher (regardless of whether she's 5 years or 25 years older than the student) has the ridiculously awful and unethical judgement to engage in a sex act with a student... IN A CLASSROOM... and you're saying the question of whether the student was legal in taping it or not is a big question?

Another NP here -- I do think it makes some difference that she was a sub on her first day -- someone in that position doesn't carry the authority that a regular teacher/coach does. And she could, in fact, have been physically smaller than the student (I haven't watched anything, so I don't know one way or the other), which also shifts the balance of power between the two.

Not saying this lets her off the hook -- it's still terribly unprofessional and I would guess illegal -- but I don't think it's quite as egregious as if a respected teacher of longstanding pressures a student into sex (as at Horace Mann, for example).