Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:That's a pure fabrication (nicer word). Now as far as the topic of this thread I think people have a tendency to criticize things they don't understand much or feel threatened by

Probably a more common reason is educated people who do understand but tire of those continuing to evangelize a 2000 year old philosophy full of many disproved beliefs.

I believe in freedom of choice!

Muslima wrote:That's a pure fabrication (nicer word). Now as far as the topic of this thread I think people have a tendency to criticize things they don't understand much or feel threatened by

Probably a more common reason is educated people who do understand but tire of those continuing to evangelize a 2000 year old philosophy full of many disproved beliefs.

Did you even read what you copied/pasted? Your post said that Muslim women are told in mosques and by their husbands that they should reproduce. "Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore children"

And I repeat, it is a fabrication. In what Mosques are Women who don't want to reproduce being forced to reproduce to increase the Ummah? You copied and pasted someone's response to teh question :"

I noticed that people are of two types: those who encourage us to have few children and those who encourage us to have a lot of children. Is there is evidence to support either of these two opinions?.

Does Islam encourage us to have children? Yes, we see children as a blessing but to make the leap from there and say that Muslim Women are trumping their wishes to satisfy their religious leaders and husbands is a pure fabrication. Muslim Women all over the world use birth control, the only thing that is forbidden in Islam is abortion, unless it is done for medical reasons. Your comments again follow the same narrative that somehow Millions of educated Muslim women who are active within their societies are not able to think for themselves or study their religion independent of male influence. This is highly misogynistic and portray all Muslim women as complacent and voiceless individuals and that is simply not true.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

It has always been haram to have an abortion, with the exception of if the mother's life is in danger. For this the lesser of the two evils is acknowledged as saving the mother. That's not exactly pro-choice.

There are no judgements against birth control and pregnancy prevention though, so there's a plus. Except, that they are encouraged at their mosques and through their religious leaders to have numerous children (the more the propagate, the sooner they are the majority and able make right in the world with Islam). Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore.

Thanks for the chuckle, that was funny to read lol

That's a pure fabrication (nicer word). Now as far as the topic of this thread I think people have a tendency to criticize things they don't understand much or feel threatened by

Not a fabrication at all. It's happened and it is still happening. Maybe not in every single mosque, but at plenty.

http://islamqa.info/en/13492


"Praise be to Allaah.
Abu Dawood (2050) narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yasaar said: A man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I have found a woman who is of good lineage and is beautiful, but she does not children. Should I marry her?” He said, “No.” Then he came again with the same question and he told him not to marry her. Then he came a third time with the same question and he said: “Marry those who are loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers before the other nations.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1784.

This hadeeth indicates that it is encouraged to marry women who are fertile, so that the numbers of the ummah will increase, and so the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will feel proud of his ummah before all other nations. This shows that it is encouraged to have a lot of children.

Al-Ghazaali said that when a man gets married, intending thereby to have children, that this is an act of worship for which he will be rewarded because of his good intention. He explained that in several ways:

1 – This is in accordance with what Allaah wants, which is to perpetuate the human race.

2 – Seeking the love of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in having many children, so that he will feel proud of them before the other Prophets and nations on the Day of Resurrection.

3 – Seeking barakah (blessing) and a great deal of reward, and forgiveness of sins through the du’aa’ of a righteous child after one dies.

It is well known that since ancient times children have been the hope of the Prophets and Messengers and all of the righteous slaves of Allaah, and that will continue to be the case so long as man’s innate nature (fitrah) remains sound. Children are a blessing whom people love and on whom they pin their hopes.

Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) prayed to his Lord, saying (interpretation of the meaning):

“My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous”

[al-Saafaat 37:100]

And Allaah says of Zakariya (peace be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning):

“When he called out his Lord (Allaah) a call in secret.

He said: ‘My Lord! Indeed my bones have grown feeble, and grey hair has spread on my head, and I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!

And verily, I fear my relatives after me, and my wife is barren. So give me from Yourself an heir.

Who shall inherit me, and inherit (also) the posterity of Ya’qoob (Jacob) (inheritance of the religious knowledge and Prophethood, not of wealth). And make him, my Lord, one with whom You are Well-Pleased!’

(Allaah said) ‘O Zakariyya (Zachariah)! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, whose name will be Yahyaa (John). We have given that name to none before (him)’”

[Maryam 19:3-7]

Allaah praises His righteous slaves in many ways, such as when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who say: ‘Our Lord! Bestow on us from our wives and our offspring the comfort of our eyes, and make us leaders of the Muttaqoon (the pious)’”

[al-Furqaan 25:74]

And Allaah tells us that Shu’ayb (peace be upon him) commanded his people to remember Allaah’s blessing to them when He made them many after they had been few. He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And remember when you were but few, and He multiplied you”

[al-A’raaf 7:86]

He regarded their being multiplied after they had been few as a great blessing which obliged them to obey Allaah and obey His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Undoubtedly the benefits of increasing the nation’s offspring are obvious to everyone who thinks about the matter. Hence nations who understand this matter have been keen to encourage their people to increase their numbers and also to make their enemies reduce their numbers by means of specious arguments and sometimes by using means that lead to infertility and having few children, by means of drugs, contaminated food stuffs that reduce fertility and so on. This is one of the means of war used against the Muslim ummah by its enemies.

We ask Allaah to ward off the evil of those who disbelieve and to thwart their plots against the Muslims.

And Allaah knows best."

Anonymous wrote:Matthew 10:22
New International Version

"You will be hated by everyone because of Me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

people on earth will hate you, but once you die, you'll be friends with the big boss forever.

Matthew 10:22
New International Version

"You will be hated by everyone because of Me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Anonymous wrote:For all the talk about tolerance and accepting of others values why do you people hate Christians? Surprisingly, you defend Muslims even when it's pretty certain that they are as anti-liberal and anti-woman as you can get.

In other words, why doesn't everyone think just like me?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

It has always been haram to have an abortion, with the exception of if the mother's life is in danger. For this the lesser of the two evils is acknowledged as saving the mother. That's not exactly pro-choice.

There are no judgements against birth control and pregnancy prevention though, so there's a plus. Except, that they are encouraged at their mosques and through their religious leaders to have numerous children (the more the propagate, the sooner they are the majority and able make right in the world with Islam). Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore.

Thanks for the chuckle, that was funny to read lol

That's a pure fabrication (nicer word). Now as far as the topic of this thread I think people have a tendency to criticize things they don't understand much or feel threatened by

Because there is no pro-Christian mandate.

I suspect you see pro-(anything else) as anti-Christian, which is a point you'll need to resolve on your own side of things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

It has always been haram to have an abortion, with the exception of if the mother's life is in danger. For this the lesser of the two evils is acknowledged as saving the mother. That's not exactly pro-choice.

There are no judgements against birth control and pregnancy prevention though, so there's a plus. Except, that they are encouraged at their mosques and through their religious leaders to have numerous children (the more the propagate, the sooner they are the majority and able make right in the world with Islam). Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore.

My family is Egyptian Muslim and nobody's ever told them to have lots of babies. Birth control is wide spread in middle and upper class, and MANY get abortions. What you are describing sounds more cultural pressure than religious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

It has always been haram to have an abortion, with the exception of if the mother's life is in danger. For this the lesser of the two evils is acknowledged as saving the mother. That's not exactly pro-choice.

There are no judgements against birth control and pregnancy prevention though, so there's a plus. Except, that they are encouraged at their mosques and through their religious leaders to have numerous children (the more the propagate, the sooner they are the majority and able make right in the world with Islam). Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore.

That depends on the Madhab you follow. But it's generally allowed up to 120 days for certain reasons including that a mothers milk may dry up and hurt existing children. Definitely to save the life a mother and in certain madhabs she doesn't need her husband's permission.

Maybe not as pro choice by European or even some of the US' standards. But far far better than Christianity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

It has always been haram to have an abortion, with the exception of if the mother's life is in danger. For this the lesser of the two evils is acknowledged as saving the mother. That's not exactly pro-choice.

There are no judgements against birth control and pregnancy prevention though, so there's a plus. Except, that they are encouraged at their mosques and through their religious leaders to have numerous children (the more the propagate, the sooner they are the majority and able make right in the world with Islam). Thus the wishes of the religious leaders and the husbands often end up trumping the wishes of the woman if she doesn't want anymore.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Original PP here. I understand that. However, I do not see a ton of lobbying done by Muslim groups in this country on those issues. The only extremely pervasive lobbying I've seen related to Islam have been campaigns about how not all Muslims are terrorists.

There are a lot of overtly Christian groups who lobby against abortion and gay marriage, among other things. My point was not "Christians are worse than Muslims". It was "Christian lobbying groups are more numerous and more high profile than Muslim lobbying groups." But I think it's certainly ironic that in a thread criticizing the "bashing" of Christianity, you use the opportunity to criticize another religion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/abortion_1.shtml

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Even given that, there are many aspects to Christianity (particularly certain strains of Christianity) that are objectionable to many people. Christian activist organizations spend a lot of time and money attempting to influence politics, and even many Christians would prefer to have secular laws.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it's certainly one reason. I personally criticize religious anti-choice groups' attempt to impose their religious beliefs on other people, and overwhelmingly, those are Christian groups, not Buddhist or Muslim or Pastafarian ones.

You do realize that Muslims are very anti-choice with regard to abortion right? Some sharia courts will allow it under circumstances that they deem appropriate, but it's not the woman's choice.

They are also extremely anti-gay and view gays with disgust. This is all according to their scriptures.

As far as being against groups that attempt to impose their religious beliefs on others, Islam is right up there with Christianity. Politics and affecting politics is very much intertwined in religious gatherings at mosques and religious conventions, just as it is at churches. They take it a step farther though when they start wanting to be able to have their own sharia courts.

Islam is pro-choice historically. Just like Judiasm. It's only the modern and misguided Salafism that is anti-choice.