Anonymous wrote:

I think that is optimistic and you are acting like Gazans have a choice. Either Hamas is committing its attacks from civilian homes and infrastructure with the ok of the civilians, in which case they are not innocent, or Hamas is forcing them, in which case the civilians losing interest will not matter.

Well by that logic Hamas can fire rockets in to civilian areas of Israel b/c the civilian population of Israel support the Israeli government. It's the logic of the fire bombing during WW2. It did not in WW2 and it will not work now.

Muslima wrote:I think you missed the point. Nelson Mandela was labeled a terrorist at some point as well. You must have heard the saying, they are Freedom Fighters when they 're on your side & they are Terrorists when they're not. Example 90% of Taliban were Mujahedeen in the 80's fighting the Soviets they were called Freedom Fighters , financed and armed by us, when they started fighting us they became Terrorists. Why do some have the monopoly on defining these terms? Remember Ronald Reagan's comment on the Contras? He basically said they were the moral equivalent of the founding fathers. One persons terrorist is another' s freedom fighter. If the founding fathers would have lost the war, they would have been prosecuted under British law as terrorists.. Perspective......

But shooting rockets and missiles at civilians is not seeking peace. Neither is maintaining a charter (and yes I know you've said they dont mean it anymore) that pledges for the killing of Jews and the destruction of Israel. How can Israel ever hope to negotiate with them? What else CAN possibly come of the rockets except counterfire?

I think you missed the point. Nelson Mandela was labeled a terrorist at some point as well. You must have heard the saying, they are Freedom Fighters when they 're on your side & they are Terrorists when they're not. Example 90% of Taliban were Mujahedeen in the 80's fighting the Soviets they were called Freedom Fighters , financed and armed by us, when they started fighting us they became Terrorists. Why do some have the monopoly on defining these terms? Remember Ronald Reagan's comment on the Contras? He basically said they were the moral equivalent of the founding fathers. One persons terrorist is another' s freedom fighter. If the founding fathers would have lost the war, they would have been prosecuted under British law as terrorists.. Perspective......

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

jsteele wrote:

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Of course, Begin did not win the Nobel Prize because of his early terrorist activities but rather in spite of them. He won because of the peace (even if often a "cold" peace) he helped bring about between Israel and Egypt. (This peace has now held for 35 years, to the great benefit of both peoples.) As he said at the time:

https://www.knesset.gov.il/process/docs/beginspeech_eng.htm

"However, I call upon the President of Egypt and upon all our neighbours: do not rule out negotiations on any subject whatsoever. I propose, in the name of the overwhelming majority of this Parliament, that everything will be negotiable. Anybody who says that, in the relationship between the Arab People - or the Arab Nations in the area - and the State of Israel there are subjects that should be excluded from negotiations, is assuming an awesome responsibility. Everything is negotiable. No side shall say the contrary. No side shall present prior conditions. We will conduct the negotiations with respect".

So yes, maybe in the future a Hamas leader will win a Nobel prize. She will be the leader who goes to Tel Aviv and says let us negotiate a fair peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, to the benefit of both peoples.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I suppose she can't speak for them, but you can.

Let me ask you, were the Jewish resistance fighters during the german occupation of france terrorists?

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think as much as Gazans blame Israel, they arent too happy with Hamas right now either. If there was ever a time to help them get new leadership, this would be it.

You have no basis for such a statement. This is simply wishful thinking on your part. There is no way for you to have any idea who Gazans blame (or for me to know for that matter).

My basis are these articles

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/25/war-weary-gazans-lash-out-at-hamas-over-refusal-cease-fire/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

The first two links are based on the same "poll" conducted by a pro-Israel think tank who didn't even reveal the identity of the pollster. I would take those results with a grain of salt. Do you seriously think an accurate poll could have been conducted during the past month?

The third link -- and a huge number of similar articles -- all trace back to a website in Egypt that is pro-Sisi. Of course, Sisi opposes Hamas. There is no independent confirmation of the beating, who did it, or why they did it. Moreover, a single anecdote is hardly authoritative.

You may be right and Hamas has lost popularity. My instinct is that the opposite is true. Regardless, I stand by my original point that it is impossible to know at this point.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think as much as Gazans blame Israel, they arent too happy with Hamas right now either. If there was ever a time to help them get new leadership, this would be it.

You have no basis for such a statement. This is simply wishful thinking on your part. There is no way for you to have any idea who Gazans blame (or for me to know for that matter).

My basis are these articles

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/25/war-weary-gazans-lash-out-at-hamas-over-refusal-cease-fire/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think as much as Gazans blame Israel, they arent too happy with Hamas right now either. If there was ever a time to help them get new leadership, this would be it.

You have no basis for such a statement. This is simply wishful thinking on your part. There is no way for you to have any idea who Gazans blame (or for me to know for that matter).

Anonymous wrote:
I think that is optimistic and you are acting like Gazans have a choice. Either Hamas is committing its attacks from civilian homes and infrastructure with the ok of the civilians, in which case they are not innocent, or Hamas is forcing them, in which case the civilians losing interest will not matter.

Of course. Without optimism, nobody would ever attempt to improve anything in the middle east. It should be obvious to everybody that Israel will not remove Hamas militarily. So, now Israel is stuck with Hamas. The only question is the environment moving forward. Will it be one in which Palestinian resentments continue or one in which they are addressed? I think we have enough examples now to know that Israel's past practices only result in additional conflict. Isn't it worth trying something different?