Anonymous wrote:I don't know the scope of his views but to give him a fair hearing I think his quote needs to be considered in the light of the social turmoil at the time such as the black panthers etc and I believe it seemed like the entire country was being ripped apart. Had he lived longer to weather the change it's hard to say how his views may have developed. Or not. Just a thought.

An uneducated, poorly-explained thought.

Anonymous wrote:One more thing:

Elvis is a hero to whom? Certainly, not black people. He, like some artists today (Iggy, Bieber, Macklemore), profited off of being an acceptable/comfortable representation of black music.

That's the point -- it's a quote from Public Enemy's "Fight the Power":

"Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant shit to me
You see straight up racist that sucker was
Simple and plain
Mother f--k him and John Wayne"

And yeah, John Wayne was a racist -- and he also created some indelible characters. And Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, and also wrote some profound things about liberty. Malcolm X was an important civil rights leader and also an ex-con. Ezra Pound was a fascist who wrote some good poetry. Dennis Rodman is a great basketball player with an unfortunate affection for the government of North Korea. Their accomplishments don't redeem their sins, but neither do their sins negate their accomplishments.

One more thing:

Elvis is a hero to whom? Certainly, not black people. He, like some artists today (Iggy, Bieber, Macklemore), profited off of being an acceptable/comfortable representation of black music.

-John Wayne was racist and his comments were disgusting.
-Thomas Jefferson was not a great man.
-Affirmative action is a necessary. Considering that white women are now the main beneficiaries, the original concept is warped anyway. If folks think black people are getting jobs over white people, you're crazy.

In hindsight John Wayne's speech seems less than enlightened by today's standards, but The Duke was still a Great American!

Is there a reason I should care if Johna Wayne was racist? I can't imagine why it's important.

Fwiw, Judy Garland did a movie where she performed in black face.

Anonymous wrote:It always amazes me how people justify racism just because the racist view was widely accepted during the time the racist was wrong. If you cannot see how sick and crazy that is, you are truly disturbed. Just because a lot people accept,perpetuate and go along with "wrong", does not magically make it right. But, God forbid anyone tell the truth and seem to taint the image of a cultural icon, and we have to deal with the real, have to think differently about something that "we" hold dear and soeaks volunes about our society as a whole. It's way more important to try to downplay than admit a truth we don't want to deal with

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Idk ...but Elvis was a hero to most

That was the first thing I thought about when I read the subject.

Me too!

I'm assuming that most of your heroes don't appear on no stamp.

He sounds like many of my relatives before they passed away. Racism is learned. There were generations of people who were taught to think that way.

It always amazes me how people justify racism just because the racist view was widely accepted during the time the racist was wrong. If you cannot see how sick and crazy that is, you are truly disturbed. Just because a lot people accept,perpetuate and go along with "wrong", does not magically make it right. But, God forbid anyone tell the truth and seem to taint the image of a cultural icon, and we have to deal with the real, have to think differently about something that "we" hold dear and soeaks volunes about our society as a whole. It's way more important to try to downplay than admit a truth we don't want to deal with

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I'd call him a racist anymore than I would Mark Twain. It's a fact of the period.

John Wayne does make a good point that if someone is not trained for a job, why should it be given to them to satisfy a number game? That's my issue with affirmative action. A 50 year old white woman who has been a checker in a grocery store for the past 30 years can't get a job because the ex-con black man needs a job and god forbid the numbers don't line up for the diversity ratio. It's bullshit.

Not looking to derail the thread but the problem with your argument that diversity for the sake of diversity is problematical - a position I basically agree with - is that it is applied selectively even by whites.

All you need to do is to look at the controversies regarding the high proportion of Asians who make up TJ - where selection is merit-based - or the discrimination that currently exists against Asians when it comes to admission at the Ivies where numbers are limited at the altar of diversity.

But coming back to the topic, I am less surprised at the fact that someone born in the early 1900s' would have this viewpoint but more that John Wayne - who presumably had the opportunity to interact with blacks in the context of his profession - would not only have the perspective he did but seeks to justify it in a public forum.

It is also interesting how some people from that generation seemed able to get past their prejudices. Take for example LBJ, a guy from Texas, who spearheaded the civil rights legislation because he believed it was needed to overcome the injustices that existed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there would be a rebuttable presumption that anyone born in 1907 had some intrinsically racist and bigoted and sexist and biased viewpoints on American life. That goes for ANYONE.

Funny. My grandmother was born in 1912 and was much less racist than my mom, born in the 40s. I've often wondered how that happened.

But yes, in general I agree with you.

A wave of xenophobia swept this country after WW-II refugees arrived, and after the war.

Anonymous wrote:I think there would be a rebuttable presumption that anyone born in 1907 had some intrinsically racist and bigoted and sexist and biased viewpoints on American life. That goes for ANYONE.

Funny. My grandmother was born in 1912 and was much less racist than my mom, born in the 40s. I've often wondered how that happened.

But yes, in general I agree with you.

I think there would be a rebuttable presumption that anyone born in 1907 had some intrinsically racist and bigoted and sexist and biased viewpoints on American life. That goes for ANYONE.

I don't think I'd call him a racist anymore than I would Mark Twain. It's a fact of the period.

John Wayne does make a good point that if someone is not trained for a job, why should it be given to them to satisfy a number game? That's my issue with affirmative action. A 50 year old white woman who has been a checker in a grocery store for the past 30 years can't get a job because the ex-con black man needs a job and god forbid the numbers don't line up for the diversity ratio. It's bullshit.