Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

Did the summer camp instructor who "turned him onto the idea of the sign" know what happened to that child's relationship with his parents? Did the child ever trust his parents again? Is that the kind of relationship you want with your child long term? That he remembers you with a sickening feeling of sadism? Is this something you would want to think about as a memory of your parents doing to you?

This is really serious that you would even think of doing this, it's so far beyond normal.

Anonymous wrote:I agree this is not normal. We have a 6 yr old boy, too. His friend from preschool is a liar as well. I noticed it starting when the kid was 4. I thought it was completely normal at the time. He is now 6 and id say about 40% of what the kid says is a lie.

- I almost got a first place, too. (Swim meet, kid came in last)

- I'm flying to Florida next week, too.

-We are using that girl for a babysitter, too. (Seeing my son interact with a fun teenager)

-My dad is getting me a new lego set today.

- we are moving

- I'm quitting soccer. Today's my last day.

- I got a new bike yesterday. (Kid had a 3 month old bike already)

Those statements sprinkled in over time would be normal. This kids spouts one out nearly every other sentence. We see him about 5 days a week at swim and before that daily at the bus stop. To all the naysayers, it is not normal, it is noticeable, and she's right to be proactive.

This is so, so, clearly lying because he wants to feel better about himself. Can't you see that? All of these statements are made because another child has something or is doing something and he feels one-down.

Can't you say to him "Do you wish you had a new bike? What can you do to earn a new bike?" Can't you gently talk to him about everyone wishing they had new things and new experiences? Just punishing him for having envious thoughts and wanting to do things he sees other kids do -- what does that teach him? That's he's even more one-down?

I agree this is not normal. We have a 6 yr old boy, too. His friend from preschool is a liar as well. I noticed it starting when the kid was 4. I thought it was completely normal at the time. He is now 6 and id say about 40% of what the kid says is a lie.

- I almost got a first place, too. (Swim meet, kid came in last)

- I'm flying to Florida next week, too.

-We are using that girl for a babysitter, too. (Seeing my son interact with a fun teenager)

-My dad is getting me a new lego set today.

- we are moving

- I'm quitting soccer. Today's my last day.

- I got a new bike yesterday. (Kid had a 3 month old bike already)

Those statements sprinkled in over time would be normal. This kids spouts one out nearly every other sentence. We see him about 5 days a week at swim and before that daily at the bus stop. To all the naysayers, it is not normal, it is noticeable, and she's right to be proactive.

Sounds like the best way to deal with this is to work on your relationship with him. You can't expect to punish this out of him, as tempting as that may be. Work on having a close relationship with him so that he might actually feel some remorse for lying and stealing. The more you punish him, the less connected he is to you, the less he feels your disappointment and pain, etc.

Anonymous wrote:On a radio show last year I think a guy took his compulsive liar son to target and said he would buy him a new gaming system and any games he wanted. They loaded up the cart and the kid was super excited and when they went to check out the dad said to the cashier/son you know what, I said I would get you this stuff but I lied and we aren't getting anything - what you're feeling now is how we feel every time you lie to us. Son was super upset but apparently it got the message across. Obviously it was "controversial" and some callers said it was mean. Maybe try something like that?

That is horrible. I'm sorry, but no.

Simple. Stop "trusting" him. Verify everything. Or ignore it.

Anonymous wrote:I second the recommendation to read nurture shock. I wonder if you started coming down hard on him too early when the first white lies came up and now he's not sure what to do. Kids who get caught for lying and punished harshly learn to lie better. Have you ever praised him for coming clean on his own? That small action would probably get you farther than harsher punishments. Please don't do the sign thing. Please. Ask him what he thinks is an appropriate punishment.

this is not a caught in a white lie issue, this is a serious emotional psychological issue.

Anonymous wrote:I second the recommendation to read nurture shock. I wonder if you started coming down hard on him too early when the first white lies came up and now he's not sure what to do. Kids who get caught for lying and punished harshly learn to lie better. Have you ever praised him for coming clean on his own? That small action would probably get you farther than harsher punishments. Please don't do the sign thing. Please. Ask him what he thinks is an appropriate punishment.

OP Here,

"I Don't Know." Eyes at the floor... his response to everything. Why did you lie about that? Why would you steal your friend's toy/snack? What can we do to help? What do you think is going to happen to you in the future? Nothing but more "I don't knows."

We reassure him all the time that we will not be nearly as disappointed if he owns up to his mistakes and is truthful. We repeat it multiple times to give him a chance to think about it and hopefully do the right thing and come forward on his own good will. No avail. Honestly, the problem started about a year ago and would never put him through anything physically traumatic for it or beat him. I'm sure we have messed up plenty of times throughout the past year, but not to the point of leaving him scared/confused/complex.

And again, thank you for the post. Every bit helps. It takes a village!

I second the recommendation to read nurture shock. I wonder if you started coming down hard on him too early when the first white lies came up and now he's not sure what to do. Kids who get caught for lying and punished harshly learn to lie better. Have you ever praised him for coming clean on his own? That small action would probably get you farther than harsher punishments. Please don't do the sign thing. Please. Ask him what he thinks is an appropriate punishment.

Anonymous wrote:OP - I'm thinking your DS has a self-esteem issue.

People, including kids, usually lie because they feel inadequate in some way. Maybe he is stealing to make himself feel better, surrounding himself with things, or he likes the idea of getting away with something. Also, you say your DS is well liked by teachers and other kids. Maybe your DS is making himself likeable to everyone because again, he has low self-esteem.

Both my kids (6 and 9) lie, too. Usually, it's because they don't want to get into trouble about something. That, I think is normal. But if your ds is compulsively lying about something that is not about avoiding trouble, then this to me doesn't seem normal. I'm not a child psychologist, but my first thought is self-esteem issue.

OP-

I completely agree. We both did a lot of self reflecting trying to figure out if he was trying to fill some sort of void or crying out for attention. Honestly, he's a great kid and is loved so much.. it crushes us in pieces every time we face another incident.

OP here

20:52 PP .. Thank you so much for sharing and your complete honesty. We are headed to therapy.

If any of you have any recommendations for excellent child/family therapists, please share.

As for the others... You must be the ones they refer to as the "bridge trolls" .. I kindly thank you for your comments. We aren't perfect parents but we do learn from trial & error and try our hardest to be our absolute best for them.
Snacks were readily available at their reach till it became a problem with the hoarding of the trash,peels,rotten apple cores, etc.. Our 6yr DS lost our trust that he was responsible enough to snack on his own terms & clean up after himself properly. I can deal with slip ups and a little encouragement of where the trash can is located but piles of rotten yogurt cups and fruit peelings stashed down the side of his bed or closet is just NOT OK! Over time and some positive reinforcement, he earned it back...each and every time till we found the next hoarding stash!

OP - I'm thinking your DS has a self-esteem issue.

People, including kids, usually lie because they feel inadequate in some way. Maybe he is stealing to make himself feel better, surrounding himself with things, or he likes the idea of getting away with something. Also, you say your DS is well liked by teachers and other kids. Maybe your DS is making himself likeable to everyone because again, he has low self-esteem.

Both my kids (6 and 9) lie, too. Usually, it's because they don't want to get into trouble about something. That, I think is normal. But if your ds is compulsively lying about something that is not about avoiding trouble, then this to me doesn't seem normal. I'm not a child psychologist, but my first thought is self-esteem issue.

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

Snacks out of the kitchen were in their own kid friendly cabinets and free for them to help themselves. My 6yr DS lost that privilege once we discovered the massive amounts of wrappers, peels, crumbs, yogurt cups, etc...

Both children actually choose raw veggies & fruits all day over junk food. We actually don't even purchase those types of things. That is one area we haven't failed in as parents!

If he was allowed to help himself why does any of that matter? Why are you changing the rules on him? It seems like you're trying to catch him in lies. You also seem very punitive. I would try to figure out what you are doing to make this worse.

How did he learn to lie so well?

I never stole, so perhaps our issues differ, but I was a compulsive liar growing up. I can't remember the first lie I told but I remember telling serious lies starting young - 5 or so. It is a lifelong struggle.

What helped me was years of therapy and learning to just immediately admit it when I lied - a LOT of training and self esteem work and positive reinforcement from my mother helped retrain me. We had an absolutely fantastic therapist that my mother paid through the roof for, but it was worth eveyr penny I think. I am still thankful for him to this day. My lies stemmed from a host of issues, both nature and nurture, and he was instrumental in helping me work through them.

In terms of behavior changes, it took me a LONG time to get here, but this is what eventually really helped me (this is AFTER lots of helpful therapy that was the foundation of this working). If I lied, I could just immediately say "actually that's not true" or "oops, I mean" or "I meant to say" and then tell the truth and I got off scott free. My teachers, parents, and friends all knew about it and were kind and supportive with me as I worked through it.

It took YEARS. Still to this day, if I'm feeling nervous or worried I won't be accepted, or just want to avoid confrontation, I will sometimes lie to tell the person what they want to hear. Almost always, I say "I mean..." and then tell the truth.

So I really heavily recommend getting him to an excellent therapist immediately and plan on it taking a while.