Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Problem with this article is that it doesn't lists causes only relationships. I am skeptical of the findings.

That is precisely what makes the article worthwhile. Applying causality to statistics always introduces bias.

What would be nice to see is the sample size, sample population, etc. That could allow us to identify potential bias in the sampling. Otherwise, the numbers have to be read as is.

You saw that this was a meta-analysis, right?

Articles like this are fine and probably good for discussion purposes, but it does bother me when non-scientists see the word "study" and automatically ascribe meaning to the effort. From what I can tell, these findings are based on kids who grew up in the 80s, so the lede should really be that parental involvement in the 80s was overrated. It's hard to take those same conclusions and apply them to kids who were born post-Internet, let alone in the last 5-7 years.

"There was an op-ed piece on one of the news sites about how this young girl from a really poor neighborhood was trying to go to college, but in her neighborhood there was more information about getting welfare assistance if you were an unwed teen mom than there was about how to get into college. She said the only reason she even thought about going to college was b/c her grandmother (although uneducated herself) encouraged her to go. She had to go on something like a 2hr bus ride to get to a community college and also work 40 hrs/week to pay for it. "

No financial aid?

Anonymous wrote:

For example, in the early 80's, I wanted to major in journalism. My dad said Americans don't want to see a yellow face on tv -- this was when the Asian population was a lot smaller than it is now. Now, he sees them everywhere on tv so he says, "Oh yea, you could've been a great journalist". I majored in business instead. See, it's about what you perceive to be attainable. I'm generalizing here.

This.

The key ingredient is expectation, and the study in the NYT piece says that, but almost as an afterthought.

I wish I could find the study about gender bias in science and how its perpetuated in the women themselves. Even when you're fully capable and above average, it's hard to fight the perception that just being who you are makes you subpar - especially when there's data backing it up. A female student in a class of full of men doesn't extend herself for fear of proving everyone right, so she's perceived to be lacking.

Some bias is not even possible to admit, but low expectation is everywhere for a black kid. It starts at an early age before they're even aware of the assumptions being made about their background and their "preparedness for learning", and just grows along with their cognizance of it.

Double THIS. I see several successful Black families in my neighborhood, and their kids will probably go on to some white collar profession as well. The Black kids in the poor ghettos only see drug dealers, gang bangers and pimps. Same goes for welfare moms/children. When a child sees that's how life is (living on welfare) and that is all they know, then that's how the child will end up.

There was an op-ed piece on one of the news sites about how this young girl from a really poor neighborhood was trying to go to college, but in her neighborhood there was more information about getting welfare assistance if you were an unwed teen mom than there was about how to get into college. She said the only reason she even thought about going to college was b/c her grandmother (although uneducated herself) encouraged her to go. She had to go on something like a 2hr bus ride to get to a community college and also work 40 hrs/week to pay for it.

For example, in the early 80's, I wanted to major in journalism. My dad said Americans don't want to see a yellow face on tv -- this was when the Asian population was a lot smaller than it is now. Now, he sees them everywhere on tv so he says, "Oh yea, you could've been a great journalist". I majored in business instead. See, it's about what you perceive to be attainable. I'm generalizing here.

This.

The key ingredient is expectation, and the study in the NYT piece says that, but almost as an afterthought.

I wish I could find the study about gender bias in science and how its perpetuated in the women themselves. Even when you're fully capable and above average, it's hard to fight the perception that just being who you are makes you subpar - especially when there's data backing it up. A female student in a class of full of men doesn't extend herself for fear of proving everyone right, so she's perceived to be lacking.

Some bias is not even possible to admit, but low expectation is everywhere for a black kid. It starts at an early age before they're even aware of the assumptions being made about their background and their "preparedness for learning", and just grows along with their cognizance of it.

Anonymous wrote:These studies always make me laugh b/c I'm Asian, Korean, and have lots of Asian friends who attended Ivies or similar, Stanford, etc. Our parents didn't do anything other than nag: No reading to us, no helping with homework, no helping pick our courses, etc. But they did pitch a fit if we didn't bring home all A's. B's were unacceptable.

This is the first study I've seen that says our parents were right all along.

Also, unlimited TV (no electronics back then). Asian parents don't expect their teens to have jobs for extra money though. My parents always considered school my "job".

These studies always make me laugh b/c I'm Asian, Korean, and have lots of Asian friends who attended Ivies or similar, Stanford, etc. Our parents didn't do anything other than nag: No reading to us, no helping with homework, no helping pick our courses, etc. But they did pitch a fit if we didn't bring home all A's. B's were unacceptable.

This is the first study I've seen that says our parents were right all along.

Did anyone ever stop to think that the achievement gap for black children exists because of racism and discrimination that is alive and well and impacts all aspects of their lives? From the teacher, white or not white, who treats the kid differently to the tv the kid watches that tells her in oh so subtle ways that she is not as good as the curly haired ethnic but not black kid? Do you really expect that after dealing with 250 years of slavery and only 40 years after the Voting Rights Act was passed that there would not be an achievement gap? The fact that black people have achieved what they have in the face of such adversity and so many obstacles -- including the white liberal "there there" elite--is a testament to the strength of the black community. We are not post racial and let's not forget the history here.

Anonymous wrote:

You are right. It's not all Asians. It is specific to certain Asian cultures. I'm tempted to say it's Asian cultures that are doing better overall. Although India still has a large poor class, those that come to this country tend to come from the higher caste, so within their subculture, they are overall doing better. Maybe it's the level of expectation. Example: one is lower SES but b/c one sees from the subculture that the path to doing better is higher ed. so they support it more.

Do you have a source for this?

I don't have access to the ICE db, but I work in high tech, and a lot of the people in STEM fields are Indian. I've talked to some about castes and what not. In India, it is extremely difficult for lower caste people to find high paying jobs or get an education - like the "Untouchables". From what I know, the govt there does have affirmative action for them, but it's spotty in how it's enforced. The caste system is very ingrained in their culture. Some of the Indians I have come across here are very prejudiced against the lower caste; they really frown upon marrying into a lower caste. There have been some honor killings due to this. Also, the Indians I know have told me about how the surnames in India work, and that they can tell what your caste is by your surname. Don't ask me what those surnames are b/c I don't remember or really care. I find the whole thing odd, IMO.

Stands to reason, if lower caste cannot get good paying jobs and are uneducated, it would be harder for them to immigrate here.

As I said, this is mostly just a generalization, but this is what I have found in my experience from my colleagues/friends in high tech.

Anonymous wrote:The "finding" that Black children whose parents read to them perform worse is really troubling. Probably an instance of correlation and not causation or something.

Angel Harris sites with links to his publications:
https://www.princeton.edu/~angelh/Web%20CV.html
http://www.soc.duke.edu/~alh71/

You are right. It's not all Asians. It is specific to certain Asian cultures. I'm tempted to say it's Asian cultures that are doing better overall. Although India still has a large poor class, those that come to this country tend to come from the higher caste, so within their subculture, they are overall doing better. Maybe it's the level of expectation. Example: one is lower SES but b/c one sees from the subculture that the path to doing better is higher ed. so they support it more.

Do you have a source for this?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the whole article. The specific conclusions are that being involved in PTA, attending parent teacher conferences, helping with homework etc. don't really impact academic achievement.

I doubt that one. Sorry, they were not specific enough. I know some parents sit down with their children and walk through every question and point out the steps the children are missing, and manage each question along the way filling in all the gaps. Others will look it over after it's complete, indicate the wrong answers, and say "you'll need to do these over." Others will help their child get online to find practice exercises and then step back and have the child complete them on their own. My father used to take me to the library, and then give me free reign from there. When I had trouble in Algebra, he sat down and drew the quadratic equation and walked me through each step until I fully comprehended it. I went on to win an award for being the best Honors Algebra student in my class of 500. Homework help can indeed help - but we don't all agree on what "help" fully means and equally important, what it does not mean.

The authors of the article would seem to agree with you. The fact that demographics skew tells you that the definition of "involvement" varies wildly.

When the author says, "set the stage," the kind of help you describe is precisely what is implied. That is, give them the information they need, but make sure they do the work on their own, make their own decisions, and make their own mistakes. Freeing them up allows them to reach greater heights.

Anonymous wrote:Problem with this article is that it doesn't lists causes only relationships. I am skeptical of the findings.

That is precisely what makes the article worthwhile. Applying causality to statistics always introduces bias.

What would be nice to see is the sample size, sample population, etc. That could allow us to identify potential bias in the sampling. Otherwise, the numbers have to be read as is.

Anonymous wrote:Read the whole article. The specific conclusions are that being involved in PTA, attending parent teacher conferences, helping with homework etc. don't really impact academic achievement.

I doubt that one. Sorry, they were not specific enough. I know some parents sit down with their children and walk through every question and point out the steps the children are missing, and manage each question along the way filling in all the gaps. Others will look it over after it's complete, indicate the wrong answers, and say "you'll need to do these over." Others will help their child get online to find practice exercises and then step back and have the child complete them on their own. My father used to take me to the library, and then give me free reign from there. When I had trouble in Algebra, he sat down and drew the quadratic equation and walked me through each step until I fully comprehended it. I went on to win an award for being the best Honors Algebra student in my class of 500. Homework help can indeed help - but we don't all agree on what "help" fully means and equally important, what it does not mean.

Anonymous wrote:The "finding" that Black children whose parents read to them perform worse is really troubling. Probably an instance of correlation and not causation or something.

I thought so too. For example, it's not clear whether or not parents are assisting children who are in academic difficulty, specifically because they're struggling; nor that they may be more disengaged from academic management of children who are performing either fine or above average.

Another example, what is homework help exactly? What one parent views as helping their child, another might view as "doing it for them."

Without looking at the underlying data - these conclusions look overly broad. There's not enough specificity here for the article to be useful.

Read the whole article. The specific conclusions are that being involved in PTA, attending parent teacher conferences, helping with homework etc. don't really impact academic achievement.