Anonymous wrote:18:49 Yes on the takeaway but:

Student athletes make what percentage of an entering class?

As for Goldin's $1 million figure, I cannot believe that the high legacy numbers at the Ivies are all applicants whose families donated $1 million. Some perhaps but I wonder what percentage of that percentage.

18:49 here - just a couple of percent, if I recall correctly. Legacies are far more numerous, as are development cases. In this world where income inequality increases every year (in part due to this system of keeping the plushest diplomas and then jobs among the already well-connected), I am not surprised that a lot of people can afford to donate a million for the Ivies - note that some of it is money raised from others, it does not have to be personal money. At Harvard, members of the executive council of the donations board (has a fancy name I can't remember) are chosen when they have raised or donated more than 5 million. Some have given 25M.

18:49 Yes on the takeaway but:

Student athletes make what percentage of an entering class?

As for Goldin's $1 million figure, I cannot believe that the high legacy numbers at the Ivies are all applicants whose families donated $1 million. Some perhaps but I wonder what percentage of that percentage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy
Money

What if you don't have legacy, but you have money? What are you suggesting? Bribery? Donations? Just curious.

Bribery is sucha crash wzy of putting it. But this is how it goes. Father of prospective student calls someone at a school . Perhaps they have lunch. Perhaps the father writes a check for &1000000. Happens all the time and it works.

Read "The Price of Admission: How America's Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges--and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates", by Daniel Golden.

He names names and cites figures.
For an Ivy League education, an alumn can expect to endow $1M to guarantee admission of his or her kids. Money is the bottom line. Alumn children without endowment are not interesting. Development cases are non-alumn kids whose parents makes similar donations. Then there are student athletes. Since most of these hooks are white (even in the athlete category!) and have at least triple the rate of admission compared to an unhooked applicant, it makes sense to conclude that affirmative action is still necessary at the college level to counteract the effect of white privilege. Note that the best-ranked schools have long had an anti-Asian bias too.

Take-away: for your typical unhooked student, the actual rate of admission is significantly lower than the published numbers show. At some top universities, it can be cut in half.

Anonymous wrote:Does class rank figure in? Any advantage to a tiny graduating class over a huge one?

Not so much since a lot of schools don't rank anymore. A tiny graduating class may be a negative because it will be harder to be in the top 10%. If it's a class of 50 only 5 kids will be in the top 10%, whereas in a class of 500 there are 50 kids in the top 10%.

Our public school doesn't rank but does provide a GPA grid that shows what percent of the class is in certain ranges. So I think it says something like 8% are in the 3.9-4.0 range, x% are in the 3.8-3.9 range, etc. I suspect colleges do look at that just so see how a student stacks up relative to the school overall.

Does class rank figure in? Any advantage to a tiny graduating class over a huge one?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tests are an important objective cutoff.

"GPA is useless" (per the UVA Admissions Dean). There are so many kinds and standards for GPA so as to make it no help. What really does matter is doing better than your high school classmates in the hardest classes in high school, however your high school communicates that (sometimes counselor recs).

The most selective schools are looking for some passion and commitment to some other thing; be it academics, sports, experience. They love to see the deep dedication it takes to reach high levels in these endeavors.

Forget all the clubs and volunteer hours. Most college bound students do tons of these things and they rarely stand out.

Agree that the most selective schools are looking for some passion or commitment. Clubs and volunteering are one way to demonstrate this passion, but they aren't enough. What makes the difference is whether the kid has risen to state or national level in these activities. So band or orchestra might make them yawn, but if your kid has one a state-level music competition they will sit up again.

The combination of *unweighted* GPA + SATs still serves as a cutoff at most colleges. Apparently weighted GPAs (e.g., an A in an AP class equals a 5) aren't used much. I don't know about UVA, but many colleges reweight applicants' GPAs using their own weighting systems. Also, the college's regional admin officers are familiar with the rigor at the different schools in the region, so this adds more info the GPA stat.

Unweighted GPAs are virtually impossible to create unless the college has a way to do it themselves. Some schools use a 4.0 scale, some use a 5.0 scales, and I know of one that uses a 6.5 scale. That's all before weighting. In NY and NJ high schools use number values. Some privates only use weighted. Some schools built weight into the final grade. It has gotten so crazy as to be hard to compare. Oh and weighting matters a lot in schools that use class rank, so it cannot be ignored.

Public schools, for example all MoCo publics, provide both weighted and unweighted GPAs. If a private school is only providing weighted GPAs, the college's regional admissions officer will likely know enough about that private school to be able to interpret the weighted GPA. Also, lots of colleges do do their own GPA weightings.

Most colleges want to see your unweighted GPA if you can provide it, and if not, whatever GPA you can provide. DC went through this process last year and the most selective colleges wanted unweighted GPA if possible.

GPA is still really important, and kids shouldn't think that B-level work (however you want to weight it) is going to work at the most selective colleges just because some high schools use different scales than others. Colleges want to see that you've taken the hardest courses available AND that you've done well in them, as measured somehow by good grades.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tests are an important objective cutoff.

"GPA is useless" (per the UVA Admissions Dean). There are so many kinds and standards for GPA so as to make it no help. What really does matter is doing better than your high school classmates in the hardest classes in high school, however your high school communicates that (sometimes counselor recs).

The most selective schools are looking for some passion and commitment to some other thing; be it academics, sports, experience. They love to see the deep dedication it takes to reach high levels in these endeavors.

Forget all the clubs and volunteer hours. Most college bound students do tons of these things and they rarely stand out.

Agree that the most selective schools are looking for some passion or commitment. Clubs and volunteering are one way to demonstrate this passion, but they aren't enough. What makes the difference is whether the kid has risen to state or national level in these activities. So band or orchestra might make them yawn, but if your kid has one a state-level music competition they will sit up again.

The combination of *unweighted* GPA + SATs still serves as a cutoff at most colleges. Apparently weighted GPAs (e.g., an A in an AP class equals a 5) aren't used much. I don't know about UVA, but many colleges reweight applicants' GPAs using their own weighting systems. Also, the college's regional admin officers are familiar with the rigor at the different schools in the region, so this adds more info the GPA stat.

Unweighted GPAs are virtually impossible to create unless the college has a way to do it themselves. Some schools use a 4.0 scale, some use a 5.0 scales, and I know of one that uses a 6.5 scale. That's all before weighting. In NY and NJ high schools use number values. Some privates only use weighted. Some schools built weight into the final grade. It has gotten so crazy as to be hard to compare. Oh and weighting matters a lot in schools that use class rank, so it cannot be ignored.

Anonymous wrote:What are the most critical in terms of getting into a really good college/university?

GPA
SAT Score
Difficulty of Classes (AP, IB, etc)
Sports
Leadership
Clubs and Activities (musical instrument, other languages, etc)
Charity Work

+ a great essay

Some of the things in this list are basically boxes to check so that your application passes the initial cut and gets a second reading. Unweighted GPA and SATs serve as thresholds to get over. Same for foreign languages: 3+ years of a foreign language is pretty much required for the most selective colleges. Checking all these boxes will likely get your application a second reading, although it doesn't guarantee acceptance.

Sports aren't necessary if you have other outstanding ECs (judging by the kids we know who got accepted at top colleges). Although if you're recruitable then it's obviously a different story....

Also, the clubs and charity work have to be meaningful because college admissions officers have good BS detectors. Apparently they aren't impressed by scattershot participation in a wide range of clubs, instead they prefer demonstrated passion in a few areas. And leadership in one or more clubs is good, in admissions officers' eyes.

On DC's college tour, over and over we heard about how being "well rounded" was out. These days, colleges want "pointy" kids who have demonstrated their passion for a few things. Also, nerdy and geeky are definitely cool, at least as far as admissions committees are concerned.

Anonymous wrote:Something that makes you different from all other applications. You started your own business. You were the youngest member ever to attend a national political convention. You play the bagpipes. I heard of a young man who got into Harvard with middling grades because he was a trained EMT with the local volunteer fire department.

I think this is true to an extent, but a kid must meet certain thresholds before this even matters - ie you could find a cure for AIDS, but if you've got a 2.5 GPA and a 1500 SAT, well your uniqueness doesn't really matter at that point if you're vying for higher ranked universities. I do think it is helpful, however, in the case of admissions at places like the Ivies where the vast majority of applicants have near-perfect GPAs and test scores. That's when you ned to set yourself apart.

Anonymous wrote:What are the most critical in terms of getting into a really good college/university?

GPA
SAT Score
Difficulty of Classes (AP, IB, etc)
Sports
Leadership
Clubs and Activities (musical instrument, other languages, etc)
Charity Work

Here is the correct order

SAT Score
Difficulty of Classes (AP, IB, etc)
GPA
Clubs and Activities (musical instrument, other languages, etc)
Charity Work
Leadership
Sports

If you are going in to play sports I would put sports at the top of the above list.

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if people are serious or not about buying a slot, but donations really are not a way into college -- perhaps a building but not a $10,000 or even $50,000 donation. Connections are also overplayed -- I know people who have Congressmen write or wealthy alums and it has little to no influence. It is more difficult to get into college these days than when most parents were applying but merit still typically controls, though some schools do look at one's ability to pay. It is not a crapshoot and it is not random but there will be things that might spark interest in an application, like a trained EMT or a situation where a student excelled at an unusual activity through hard work.

True, there is an admissions boost in the combination of applying early decision without indicating a need for FA. Colleges need the full-pay students to subsidize the financial aid students.

I don't know if people are serious or not about buying a slot, but donations really are not a way into college -- perhaps a building but not a $10,000 or even $50,000 donation. Connections are also overplayed -- I know people who have Congressmen write or wealthy alums and it has little to no influence. It is more difficult to get into college these days than when most parents were applying but merit still typically controls, though some schools do look at one's ability to pay. It is not a crapshoot and it is not random but there will be things that might spark interest in an application, like a trained EMT or a situation where a student excelled at an unusual activity through hard work.

^^^ "has won" a competition, not "has one."

Damn you, autocorrect.

Anonymous wrote:Tests are an important objective cutoff.

"GPA is useless" (per the UVA Admissions Dean). There are so many kinds and standards for GPA so as to make it no help. What really does matter is doing better than your high school classmates in the hardest classes in high school, however your high school communicates that (sometimes counselor recs).

The most selective schools are looking for some passion and commitment to some other thing; be it academics, sports, experience. They love to see the deep dedication it takes to reach high levels in these endeavors.

Forget all the clubs and volunteer hours. Most college bound students do tons of these things and they rarely stand out.

Agree that the most selective schools are looking for some passion or commitment. Clubs and volunteering are one way to demonstrate this passion, but they aren't enough. What makes the difference is whether the kid has risen to state or national level in these activities. So band or orchestra might make them yawn, but if your kid has one a state-level music competition they will sit up again.

The combination of *unweighted* GPA + SATs still serves as a cutoff at most colleges. Apparently weighted GPAs (e.g., an A in an AP class equals a 5) aren't used much. I don't know about UVA, but many colleges reweight applicants' GPAs using their own weighting systems. Also, the college's regional admin officers are familiar with the rigor at the different schools in the region, so this adds more info the GPA stat.