Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

I'm the poster you were responding to. Law school is not just a degree. It's also loans - vast amounts of loans, hundreds of thousands sometimes. You don't just have to find a job, you have to find a job that will allow you to repay those insane amounts of student loans and still somehow manage to have a life. The lower in the rankings you go, the higher the chances of unemployment and the lower the potential salary. Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but I would advise my child strongly against attending anything but the top-25 schools. Just my opinion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was an English major at a "cute liberal arts" college, and i also had a second major in an even less practical liberal arts field (to remain unnamed so as not to identify me) because I truly loved it. I have had a successful and fulfilling career as a lawyer. As others have said, it doesn't really matter what you major in, as long as you can think critically, express yourself well, and, most of all, write well. Also I think it is important to major in what you really love, because you are more likely to shine in that area and get the kind of one on one attention from professors that advances learning (and gets you good recommendations). If you are worried about her having an "impractical" major, consider finding a school where she can double major in a "fun" subject she loves and something you think is more marketable in case she doesn't want to go to grad school right away. Good luck! I feel sorry for all these kids whose parents are steering them toward STEM or business because "that's where the jobs are." If a kid doesn't have an interest or aptitude in these areas, it seems unlikely she will be very happy or successful in the long term

It does matter what you major in, just in case her DD decides by the end of undergrad that she doesn't want to be a lawyer.

Whether it matters what you major in is a separate question for whether it makes sense to switch your major away from your area of interest into something you perceive as more lucrative. Interest and intrinsic motivation are a key part of becoming successful.

I also think its pretty easy to overstate the significance of your undergraduate major. The average mid-career salary for a philosophy major is similar to the average for someone who has an undergraduate degree in computers (it is moderately higher than someone who has a computer engineering degree but moderately lower than someone who has a computer science degree). That's obviously not because philosophy is a particularly useful major, it is because it attracts a relatively intelligent group of people who eventually figure out a way to make money. It is much more important to have a bright, motivated child than a child who chose a major based on Bureau of Labor Statistics projections.

Anonymous wrote:I was an English major at a "cute liberal arts" college, and i also had a second major in an even less practical liberal arts field (to remain unnamed so as not to identify me) because I truly loved it. I have had a successful and fulfilling career as a lawyer. As others have said, it doesn't really matter what you major in, as long as you can think critically, express yourself well, and, most of all, write well. Also I think it is important to major in what you really love, because you are more likely to shine in that area and get the kind of one on one attention from professors that advances learning (and gets you good recommendations). If you are worried about her having an "impractical" major, consider finding a school where she can double major in a "fun" subject she loves and something you think is more marketable in case she doesn't want to go to grad school right away. Good luck! I feel sorry for all these kids whose parents are steering them toward STEM or business because "that's where the jobs are." If a kid doesn't have an interest or aptitude in these areas, it seems unlikely she will be very happy or successful in the long term

It does matter what you major in, just in case her DD decides by the end of undergrad that she doesn't want to be a lawyer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

Just google "law schools and jobs" and you will see lots of articles about the unemployment rate for law school graduates.

Here is one:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/

That article, which seems to have been written in 2009 or 2010 said that almost 70% of law school graduates got jobs that required them to pass the bar degree, and that in 2010 the market was already correcting itself as evidenced by reduced numbers of law school applicants, which will presumably has lead to reduced numbers of law school graduates.

Ooops, sorry, it was the other article with the 2009 stats. This one has similar numbers, with "underemployment" at a little less than 30%. It also lists a number of schools well outside the top 20 with relatively low underemployment rates.

I'm not saying that law school is a good investment, or that there isn't a job crisis, but I get sick of DCUM's hyperbole about anything negative that impacts affluent people (97.5% of all law school grads won't become practicing lawyers! We're poor because every suburb of DC (except Silver Spring, Alexandria, all of PG county, almost anything outside the beltway . . . ) has an average income of 200K! Nobody sends their children to X school! (except for, presumably, the families of the 600 students enrolled there)).

My favorite is the "nobody in their right mind would send their kid to X preschool" comments when the preschool has a waiting list and every kid in the preschool has two parents with graduate degrees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

Just google "law schools and jobs" and you will see lots of articles about the unemployment rate for law school graduates.

Here is one:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/

That article, which seems to have been written in 2009 or 2010 said that almost 70% of law school graduates got jobs that required them to pass the bar degree, and that in 2010 the market was already correcting itself as evidenced by reduced numbers of law school applicants, which will presumably has lead to reduced numbers of law school graduates.

Ooops, sorry, it was the other article with the 2009 stats. This one has similar numbers, with "underemployment" at a little less than 30%. It also lists a number of schools well outside the top 20 with relatively low underemployment rates.

I'm not saying that law school is a good investment, or that there isn't a job crisis, but I get sick of DCUM's hyperbole about anything negative that impacts affluent people (97.5% of all law school grads won't become practicing lawyers! We're poor because every suburb of DC (except Silver Spring, Alexandria, all of PG county, almost anything outside the beltway . . . ) has an average income of 200K! Nobody sends their children to X school! (except for, presumably, the families of the 600 students enrolled there)).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

Just google "law schools and jobs" and you will see lots of articles about the unemployment rate for law school graduates.

Here is one:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/

That article, which seems to have been written in 2009 or 2010 said that almost 70% of law school graduates got jobs that required them to pass the bar degree, and that in 2010 the market was already correcting itself as evidenced by reduced numbers of law school applicants, which will presumably has lead to reduced numbers of law school graduates.

http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/11/just-how-bad-off-are-law-school-graduates/

Here's another.

The PP is exactly right that if you want to be a practicing attorney, a top 20 law school is the only way to go.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

Just google "law schools and jobs" and you will see lots of articles about the unemployment rate for law school graduates.

Here is one:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

The PP was clearly considering only a small subset of legal jobs (large law firm, DOJ, etc.) as being successful as an attorney, yes. (But for that subset of attorneys, yes, you really do need those credentials at this moment).

OP, I think there are some reasons to be cautious here. The people who go to law school and are successful usually had a strong, intrinsic desire to be a lawyer. They could articulate to themselves some reason why they wanted to be a lawyer other than "I am smart and want to make a good living." I also think it is a very good idea to take at least one year off after college. Not only will you have more perspective, but there are ample studies showing you actually do better in law school (relative to what your grades and LSAT would predict).

That being said, if your DD really does decide it is for her, please do not freak out about it because of all of the folks online who are pessimistic about job prospects. The current projections accounting both for job growth and reduced applications to law school show the market evening out in about 2018. The earliest DD would possibly enter the profession is more like 2022.

People who graduated in 2009 have very legitimate beefs about how the market played out. But those grievances have absolutely nothing to do with the job prospects your DD will face. I would not factor the current job market into your analysis much at all.

(I don't think this analysis applies just to law by the way; its easy to overthink how much you can know about the job market a decade from now. To give one example, Facebook is less than 10 years old. I am pretty sure that if your daughter had been a junior in 2003 you would have been highly skeptical of her plan to get paid for helping peopel socialize online).

Anonymous wrote:To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

So only 2.5% of law school candidates will have a chance of working at a lawyer (20/200 schools x .25)? Or are there other lawyer jobs that are just invisible on DCUM the way that certain schools, and counties, and socio-economic don't exist?

I know that lawyer jobs are harder to come by than in the past, but I've very suspicious of your figures.

To get a job as a lawyer, it is absolutely necessary these days to be accepted into the top-15 or top-25 school and graduate top-25% of your class. It also helps to have some kind of a practical undergraduate degree, such as accounting, engineering, or biology. I would say start by getting a decent undergrad degree and see if you can get into a top-20 law school. If you can't - don't bother, the investment will not pay off.

Anonymous wrote:Sigh? My child is a HS senior and I would be thrilled if DC had that sort of focus and direction! I would also know that lots can change between now and end of sophomore year of college when students must declare majors. Hang in there!

Encourage DC to declare a major before college and not later than the end of the first semester or second quarter of her freshman year. That helps with graduating within four years, saving money and lost opportunity costs by staying in college longer. And with more serious majors, there's not much time for switching majors.

She has lots of time. Especially if she wants to go to law school she can major in anything. I would re-evaluate attending law school closer to college graduation re: likely employment vs cost. If it isn't a hugh financial strain, then it's always nice to have a law degree. You can decide if that's a luxury you/she can afford.

What you are hearing is the sound of other doors closing

Anonymous wrote:Encourage her to major in something practical that will lead to a decent job when she graduates from college. Then take the LSAT. Go to LS only if she has a high score and is accepted to a top school. Not really worth the time, effort or money these days otherwise.

+1 This PP is exactly right!