Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree that the demographics have changed in MoCo, although I wouldn't say drastically. I do definitely agree that there is often limited interaction between in boundary and special program kids, but I think this varies by school and is a function of teacher and administrative leadership. My child was in one special program where the principal openly worked hard (and IMO fairly successfully) so that there was no school-within-a-school feel. My child was in a second special program where the principal and teachers in fact reinforce segregation between home school and the magnet program. There have been several incidents where teachers have pulled magnet students aside and warned them in front of other students not to be friends with "those kids outside the magnet". I don't know how you fix that kind of racism, but I don't think the answer is to end the programs.

As for abandonment of certain higher poverty schools by local middle class families, this isn't caused by the MCPS special programs alone. I drive my child from west MoCo to a high poverty east MoCo school to participate in a magnet. I am surprised by the number of car stickers I see for second tier (or lower) private schools at a significant distance from these middle income neighborhoods ($500K homes or less). I have no way of telling whether these are white or black families who have fled the MCPS system, but it's clear that significant numbers leave for private school. So, I'm not sure that eliminating these MCPS programs will solve the "flight" problem you describe.

Wow. I sometimes feel we are a "professional magnet family" (2 kids, total of five magnets between ES and MS) and I have never ever seen or heard anything like this!

I think all lot of the intermingling between programs occurs in extracurriculars. My DS knows and socializes with lots of kids outside of his MS magnet classes because he participates in several sports. Similary, he knew the nonmagnet kids in ES because he played basketball with them at recess every day. To me, this is a huge advantage -- he moves comfortably in lots of circles.

I live in what you'd probably consider one of those middle class neighborhoods (Silver Spring, houses $400K to $600K) and the only private school kids in my neighborhood went to Catholic school. The vast majority go to the local schools and are having a good experience.

We're another "professional magnet" family and have never heard of a teacher warning magnet kids not to associate with non-magnet kids. MS and HS Magnet kids take classes every day with non-magnet kids in subjects like english, social studies, gym, foreign languages and art. The ES magnet in Takoma was only a few magnet classes, and the rest of classes were with non-magnet kids.

This definitely happened. Thankfully the child who was warned was no shrinking violet and had the presence to inform the teacher that, since she (the student) had good grades, she thought that she was perfectly capable of being able to pick good friends. Nonetheless, the warning was clear to all those within earshot of this exchange.

At our high poverty middle school magnet, there is no recess. Very few kids participate in after school activities -- the activities offered other than sports are mostly geared toward "at risk" students and thus don't draw magnet kids. Plus many magnet students are coming from far away and don't or can't use the (minimal) after school bus routes. There is some mixing of kids in some classes (health and PE mostly because the advanced math and languages are mostly filled with the magnet students even though it's not part of their program), but, it's not the kids that refuse to mix, rather some teachers who discourage it.

I do think that being in school with different races/classes/ethnicities is a huge advantage, I'm just saying that I don't necessarily think that the teachers and administrators on the ground are thinking universally and strategically about how to help make this happen as a positive experience in their school, and some are actively undermining it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree that the demographics have changed in MoCo, although I wouldn't say drastically. I do definitely agree that there is often limited interaction between in boundary and special program kids, but I think this varies by school and is a function of teacher and administrative leadership. My child was in one special program where the principal openly worked hard (and IMO fairly successfully) so that there was no school-within-a-school feel. My child was in a second special program where the principal and teachers in fact reinforce segregation between home school and the magnet program. There have been several incidents where teachers have pulled magnet students aside and warned them in front of other students not to be friends with "those kids outside the magnet". I don't know how you fix that kind of racism, but I don't think the answer is to end the programs.

As for abandonment of certain higher poverty schools by local middle class families, this isn't caused by the MCPS special programs alone. I drive my child from west MoCo to a high poverty east MoCo school to participate in a magnet. I am surprised by the number of car stickers I see for second tier (or lower) private schools at a significant distance from these middle income neighborhoods ($500K homes or less). I have no way of telling whether these are white or black families who have fled the MCPS system, but it's clear that significant numbers leave for private school. So, I'm not sure that eliminating these MCPS programs will solve the "flight" problem you describe.

Wow. I sometimes feel we are a "professional magnet family" (2 kids, total of five magnets between ES and MS) and I have never ever seen or heard anything like this!

I think all lot of the intermingling between programs occurs in extracurriculars. My DS knows and socializes with lots of kids outside of his MS magnet classes because he participates in several sports. Similary, he knew the nonmagnet kids in ES because he played basketball with them at recess every day. To me, this is a huge advantage -- he moves comfortably in lots of circles.

I live in what you'd probably consider one of those middle class neighborhoods (Silver Spring, houses $400K to $600K) and the only private school kids in my neighborhood went to Catholic school. The vast majority go to the local schools and are having a good experience.

We're another "professional magnet" family and have never heard of a teacher warning magnet kids not to associate with non-magnet kids. MS and HS Magnet kids take classes every day with non-magnet kids in subjects like english, social studies, gym, foreign languages and art. The ES magnet in Takoma was only a few magnet classes, and the rest of classes were with non-magnet kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm actually VERY familiar with the history and live in a zone where one of the programs used to be hosted. The problem is the model is outdated, the demographics of the region have changed drastically since Brown v. Board, and the limited interaction between the wealthy kids drawn in from out of boundary really limits the benefit of "integration" supposedly accomplished. In our area, it is common knowledge that you apply to the immersion programs to avoid the local schools. This contributes to an ever-increasing poverty rate at those local schools, which are pretty much abandoned by the in-boundary middle class families. So while some of the schools that host the programs may experience a benefit of at least the appearance of integration, it consolidates poverty at the schools that parents have given up on. There is not a net benefit there. There are some very clear losers. The program should adjust to the times. Given the huge increase in the local hispanic population, there is a very real need to start refining our approach to english language learning through the dual language model.

I agree that the demographics have changed in MoCo, although I wouldn't say drastically. I do definitely agree that there is often limited interaction between in boundary and special program kids, but I think this varies by school and is a function of teacher and administrative leadership. My child was in one special program where the principal openly worked hard (and IMO fairly successfully) so that there was no school-within-a-school feel. My child was in a second special program where the principal and teachers in fact reinforce segregation between home school and the magnet program. There have been several incidents where teachers have pulled magnet students aside and warned them in front of other students not to be friends with "those kids outside the magnet". I don't know how you fix that kind of racism, but I don't think the answer is to end the programs.

As for abandonment of certain higher poverty schools by local middle class families, this isn't caused by the MCPS special programs alone. I drive my child from west MoCo to a high poverty east MoCo school to participate in a magnet. I am surprised by the number of car stickers I see for second tier (or lower) private schools at a significant distance from these middle income neighborhoods ($500K homes or less). I have no way of telling whether these are white or black families who have fled the MCPS system, but it's clear that significant numbers leave for private school. So, I'm not sure that eliminating these MCPS programs will solve the "flight" problem you describe.

Wow. I sometimes feel we are a "professional magnet family" (2 kids, total of five magnets between ES and MS) and I have never ever seen or heard anything like this!

I think all lot of the intermingling between programs occurs in extracurriculars. My DS knows and socializes with lots of kids outside of his MS magnet classes because he participates in several sports. Similary, he knew the nonmagnet kids in ES because he played basketball with them at recess every day. To me, this is a huge advantage -- he moves comfortably in lots of circles.

I live in what you'd probably consider one of those middle class neighborhoods (Silver Spring, houses $400K to $600K) and the only private school kids in my neighborhood went to Catholic school. The vast majority go to the local schools and are having a good experience.

Anonymous wrote:

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated.

PP at 11:48, you were in elementary school in the early 1960s?

This is certainly possible! I am 50 years old and started ES in 1968, so the PP doesn't even have to be 60 years old to remember this. And many of us who had kids in our late 30s will be in our late 50s with high school kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated.

PP at 11:48, you were in elementary school in the early 1960s?

Where do you get early 1960's from? The early sixties was just the very beginning of these debates. The specific changes I mention happened in the BCC cluster in the mid seventies, when I was in elementary school. The debates about forced busing, school closings and special programs continued into the early 80s, as I remember. The Eisenberg case happened in 1999. Segregation/integration issues are part of our very recent history (sadly).

MCPS was desegrated de jure at the end of 1961. De facto segregation continued, of course. In fact it still continues.

Yes, de jure segregation ended first, but it changed very little in MoCo, because the reality was that neighborhood/housing patterns in MoCo were still very segregated due to a long history of racially and religiously restrictive property covenants and the practice of mortgage red-lining. In the early 60s, MoCo could still get away with saying "we are no longer segregated" but maintaining school district boundaries based on housing patterns that resulted in de facto segregation. It took until the mid-70s, when BoE members and citizens could see the handwriting on the wall that schools might be forcibly desegregated by court-ordered plans, for the community to come up with these voluntary desegregation by school choice plans.

I am not disagreeing with you, just elaborating. Sometimes I think that people who live MoCo forget or don't really know the (sad) history of our county (although it's not much different from other counties in that regard).

PP..you are not correct. The College Gardens program was always meant to be a lottery to offer Chinese immersion to children beyond the Potomac Elementary program where the neighborhood does have first preference and fills many of the spots. My children were there at the time. It was always planned to be a lottery and has been since day 1. It is Potomac that had and still has neighborhood preference because it is funded through a donation (?) to that school (not sure about the details there).

The chinese immersion program at College Gardens did not begin as a lottery. It was a program that was only available to families within that school's boundaries. Families bought into that boundary to send their children to the program. It was switched to a lottery system after complaints that not everybody had equal access.

I'm sure there were families who spent more on housing to be in boundary that were quite upset.

I live in a "less desirable" MoCo school cluster and know families in my neighborhood (and other neighborhoods)who have children in the immersion programs. The majority of the families have at least one parent that speaks the target language and have genuine desire to have their children learn in the target language. Is there an element of being "scared" of the lower SES homeschool, absolutely, but it is not so black and white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated.

PP at 11:48, you were in elementary school in the early 1960s?

Where do you get early 1960's from? The early sixties was just the very beginning of these debates. The specific changes I mention happened in the BCC cluster in the mid seventies, when I was in elementary school. The debates about forced busing, school closings and special programs continued into the early 80s, as I remember. The Eisenberg case happened in 1999. Segregation/integration issues are part of our very recent history (sadly).

MCPS was desegrated de jure at the end of 1961. De facto segregation continued, of course. In fact it still continues.

Anonymous wrote:I'm actually VERY familiar with the history and live in a zone where one of the programs used to be hosted. The problem is the model is outdated, the demographics of the region have changed drastically since Brown v. Board, and the limited interaction between the wealthy kids drawn in from out of boundary really limits the benefit of "integration" supposedly accomplished. In our area, it is common knowledge that you apply to the immersion programs to avoid the local schools. This contributes to an ever-increasing poverty rate at those local schools, which are pretty much abandoned by the in-boundary middle class families. So while some of the schools that host the programs may experience a benefit of at least the appearance of integration, it consolidates poverty at the schools that parents have given up on. There is not a net benefit there. There are some very clear losers. The program should adjust to the times. Given the huge increase in the local hispanic population, there is a very real need to start refining our approach to english language learning through the dual language model.

I agree that the demographics have changed in MoCo, although I wouldn't say drastically. I do definitely agree that there is often limited interaction between in boundary and special program kids, but I think this varies by school and is a function of teacher and administrative leadership. My child was in one special program where the principal openly worked hard (and IMO fairly successfully) so that there was no school-within-a-school feel. My child was in a second special program where the principal and teachers in fact reinforce segregation between home school and the magnet program. There have been several incidents where teachers have pulled magnet students aside and warned them in front of other students not to be friends with "those kids outside the magnet". I don't know how you fix that kind of racism, but I don't think the answer is to end the programs.

As for abandonment of certain higher poverty schools by local middle class families, this isn't caused by the MCPS special programs alone. I drive my child from west MoCo to a high poverty east MoCo school to participate in a magnet. I am surprised by the number of car stickers I see for second tier (or lower) private schools at a significant distance from these middle income neighborhoods ($500K homes or less). I have no way of telling whether these are white or black families who have fled the MCPS system, but it's clear that significant numbers leave for private school. So, I'm not sure that eliminating these MCPS programs will solve the "flight" problem you describe.