About 40-50% end up keeping their children.

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Is there anything that keeps the birthmother from changing her mind? Is it possible one could end up paying all these expenses you guys are talking about and end up with nothing? Not trying to discourage anyone, just curious.

Yep. We had a failed adoption where the birthmother changed her mind, and were in the hole for thousands. It's not uncommon. But we kept at it, and had success the next time.

NP here. Is there anything that keeps the birthmother from changing her mind? Is it possible one could end up paying all these expenses you guys are talking about and end up with nothing? Not trying to discourage anyone, just curious.

.24 and .35 speak the truth. You ARE naive, OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't get discouraged by this! I adopted internationally and it was waaaay less than $40,000. 20k is about accurate though. I discovered later that when you adopt in DC there is a cap for residents. I can't recall how much but significantly less, like $6000 and this was not through foster care. You should look into this. It may have been for black or mixed race children, however.

If you really want a healthy white infant you are looking at more money.

I don't care about the race or ethnicity of the child.

For the sake of the adoptive child, please give a shit. Do you have any idea how it feels to be the one black person in a white family? To be the only person who craves a certain type of food, music, etc? You need to read up on the affects of adoption on the adopted child. This is NOT just about you and your wants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have adopted domestically twice, and both times was given estimates of around $20,000. Both times, it cost over $40,000 once the additional costs mentioned above are added in. Also, many birthmothers have additional expenses -- such as a need for housing, clothing, utility payments -- that are not covered by Medicaid. One of the reasons that they may be placing is that they lack these basic necessities and, in order for them to live and eat before they give birth the PAPs are frequently asked to contribute to, if not wholly subsidize, these expenses. Sorry, I can't help you with the tax credit but your agency or lawyer should have the answer to that question at the tip of their fingers.

Good to know. It will be something for us to ask. We will probably go through Catholic Charities and in the information they provided, they mentioned nothing of subsidizing housing and health care costs for birth mothers. I don't know if the church covers it or what, but I am not prepared to take care of health care at full cost for several months, unless there is a way to add the birth mother to our insurance.

You cannot add a birthmother to your insurance. Most of the time you pay for agency fees, homestudy fees, attorney fees and birthparent expenses, not including travel. You will probably pay some medical. Some birthmothers get state insurance but if not, you are expected to pay cash for the medical appointments and birth. Most often, the agencies forget to say the extra's. Only the very expensive agencies will include as a flat fee and they charge you for those services regardless of the need. You can very easily be expected, depending on the state, to pay for an apartment, food, cell phone, clothing, cable and a host of expenses. Some states do not allow it but they also have much lower placement rates. You need to ask about how many waiting families there are, how many placements did they do last year, how many placements did they do this year, how many waiting families adopt in one year, two years, three years, four years, five years and how many give up/adopt another avenue, etc. It is not an easy or simple process for most, for some, yes, but for most, its very complicated.

How the credit works is if you pay $12,000 in federal taxes the year you finalize, you then will get that back. If you only pay $6,000, you will get $6,000 back the year you finalize and then you can get $6,000 back the next year. They regularly change the rules so it may be different when you adopt. If you pay $1000 in taxes a year, then, well, you aren't going to see it for a long time. Right now because of fraud, they are heavily scrutinize the adoption credit requests. You will have to provide documentation, which should not be an issue and you can only claim specific allowable expenses.

Thank you. I believe we do pay $12,500 in federal taxes a year. And I will ask more questions about birth mother costs, which none of the agencies addressed other than to indicate that tjey apply for Medicare on behalf of the birth mothers. It seems a bit like extortion to ask for all the birth mother's expenses to be paid. This expectation is why we ruled out a gestational carrier arrangement, because it feels entirely too much like a commercial transaction as opposed to parenting a child in the stead of someone who has selflessly decided they cannot. Perhaps I AM naive about the motivations of some birth mothers, by the sound of it.

Don't rule out gestational carrier. It was not something I considered then but now I would. In what we paid for adoption, we could have done that and it would have been much easier and cleaner (well, maybe and of course I would not have my child now). It is extortion. If you refuse to pay, they rule you out for many situations. You are competing against families who will pay anything to adopt. They become the priority. We worked with one facilitator who refused to get government benefits (she probably was getting them and just using us) and gave us a laundry list of expenses from rent to food to cell phone (basically a family living more lavishly than we were) for a two parent family (one parent could work) and the goal was for us to pay enough to get the older kids out of foster care. (yes we ran quickly but after that we were never considered for any situations and we lots the initial money).

There are some decent birthmothers out there. Ours was amazing. She did not ask or ever want any expenses. But, that is rare.

Agencies can do all sorts of things from not place (it is in their agreement) for any reason and keep your money, than can change the fee schedule on you (happened to us with one agency) and the list goes on.

The problem with the tax credit is that many agencies, attorney's and others have used it as an excuse to charge such high fees justifying you will get the money back with the credit (that assumes you actually have an adoption to show for). Adoption is a business. It is about making money. Your birthmother can place and get no expenses and you still will pay a fortune, like we did. You have to overlook many things and only keep your focus of wanting a child. The adoption industry is in a bad place right now between more parents choosing to parent and many international countries closing. It can be done, but you also have to look at the emotional and financial cost to your family. If you have no children, it is worth it. If you have a child, there is no way I'd try adoption.

Anonymous wrote:Do you not think that figure will vary based on location? I assume, based on the specific costs outlined, that health care and living expenses are significantly more in DC than say, Dea Moines, yes?

No, they will milk an adoptive family for everything you have. In DC, there are actually strict rules (or used to be) on what a family could pay. Same for Maryland. That is why many families go out of state in this area. There are a few local agencies who work with local families who are truly trying to do good and not charging a huge fee but they are rare. Health care, living expenses and attorney fees are usually extra. Birthparent expenses may be cheaper in one state due to cost of living or limitations on adoption expenses in that state. If you choose the affordable route in terms of not being willing to pay birthparent expenses it will take you much longer to adopt.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You get an credit of the amount (forget what - $12,000 or so). Basically, it reduces your tax liability for that year and if you did not pay that much in taxes, it carries over. Be prepared to spend a lot more than that. $20,000 is conservative if you get lucky quickly. We basically lived off of one salary and put mine toward adoption paying cash as we went. We did not want to risk getting into debt. We probably spent between $40-50,000 on different agency's, advertising and attorneys. Our actual adoption was only about $14,000.

Honestly, if you have one child, I would not adopt if you cannot afford to pay cash. It was worth it for one. If you can adopt quickly, hassle free, it is worth it but there are no guarantees, agency's want a lot of money up front and do not have to provide you with a child, lots of scams, attorneys are a rip-off, etc. If you did not have a child, its worth it.

Thanks. I don't need advice on whether to add a second (that's intensely personal) but I do appreciate the info on costs. I don't live in DC so I am not worried about scams, multiple agencies, advertising, etc. We've thoroughly vetted possible agencies and have spoken to parents who've used them. You don't pay the placement fees until you actually have a child placed with you - and there are minimal upfront costs for parent profiles, etc. And all legal fees are included in that $20K figure, which seems to be pretty standard across the board in our part of the country.

Bottom line is what $$ impact did the tax credit have on your refund, and at what HHI?

Scams happen anywhere, not just DC. You really need to look into this as there is more to expenses than just the tax credit. And, just you live in one state, does not mean your child comes from your state. Its not as simple as you are making it out to sound.

So Catholic Charities is lying to me when they say they only place children within my state? And the other agencies that we've spoke to, that have been recommended by adoptive parents we've met, are lying when they say they only place children from within the state? All of these people, the adoptive parents included, are lying to me? Including the licensing agencies for the state with whom we've inquired about these agencies?

I'm not trying to argue, but we are not THAT naive. It's not like I'm placing an ad on Craigslist.

The particular agency you are choosing my only place in state as that is what they are licensed to do. Many agencies work with out of state families. But, they can work with other agencies and coordinate with another agency to get you a child. Or, you can take your home study and go to an agency in another state. You have a lot more options. And, you may want to try Craigslist. I found a child there for a friend. Ours in an internet baby too. Do not rule out any options. Private does work. You can do agency, attorney or private (and a few other ways too).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You get an credit of the amount (forget what - $12,000 or so). Basically, it reduces your tax liability for that year and if you did not pay that much in taxes, it carries over. Be prepared to spend a lot more than that. $20,000 is conservative if you get lucky quickly. We basically lived off of one salary and put mine toward adoption paying cash as we went. We did not want to risk getting into debt. We probably spent between $40-50,000 on different agency's, advertising and attorneys. Our actual adoption was only about $14,000.

Honestly, if you have one child, I would not adopt if you cannot afford to pay cash. It was worth it for one. If you can adopt quickly, hassle free, it is worth it but there are no guarantees, agency's want a lot of money up front and do not have to provide you with a child, lots of scams, attorneys are a rip-off, etc. If you did not have a child, its worth it.

Thanks. I don't need advice on whether to add a second (that's intensely personal) but I do appreciate the info on costs. I don't live in DC so I am not worried about scams, multiple agencies, advertising, etc. We've thoroughly vetted possible agencies and have spoken to parents who've used them. You don't pay the placement fees until you actually have a child placed with you - and there are minimal upfront costs for parent profiles, etc. And all legal fees are included in that $20K figure, which seems to be pretty standard across the board in our part of the country.

Bottom line is what $$ impact did the tax credit have on your refund, and at what HHI?

Scams happen anywhere, not just DC. You really need to look into this as there is more to expenses than just the tax credit. And, just you live in one state, does not mean your child comes from your state. Its not as simple as you are making it out to sound.

So Catholic Charities is lying to me when they say they only place children within my state? And the other agencies that we've spoke to, that have been recommended by adoptive parents we've met, are lying when they say they only place children from within the state? All of these people, the adoptive parents included, are lying to me? Including the licensing agencies for the state with whom we've inquired about these agencies?

I'm not trying to argue, but we are not THAT naive. It's not like I'm placing an ad on Craigslist.

People are trying to help you OP. These ladies have done their best to answer your questions. Accept that help graciously. Being snarky and defensive is very unbecoming.

Do you not think that figure will vary based on location? I assume, based on the specific costs outlined, that health care and living expenses are significantly more in DC than say, Dea Moines, yes?

Honey you can argue all day long with us but trust me IT WILL COST MORE THAN 20k. 30-40 is average. We did CC too!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have adopted domestically twice, and both times was given estimates of around $20,000. Both times, it cost over $40,000 once the additional costs mentioned above are added in. Also, many birthmothers have additional expenses -- such as a need for housing, clothing, utility payments -- that are not covered by Medicaid. One of the reasons that they may be placing is that they lack these basic necessities and, in order for them to live and eat before they give birth the PAPs are frequently asked to contribute to, if not wholly subsidize, these expenses. Sorry, I can't help you with the tax credit but your agency or lawyer should have the answer to that question at the tip of their fingers.

Good to know. It will be something for us to ask. We will probably go through Catholic Charities and in the information they provided, they mentioned nothing of subsidizing housing and health care costs for birth mothers. I don't know if the church covers it or what, but I am not prepared to take care of health care at full cost for several months, unless there is a way to add the birth mother to our insurance.

You cannot add a birthmother to your insurance. Most of the time you pay for agency fees, homestudy fees, attorney fees and birthparent expenses, not including travel. You will probably pay some medical. Some birthmothers get state insurance but if not, you are expected to pay cash for the medical appointments and birth. Most often, the agencies forget to say the extra's. Only the very expensive agencies will include as a flat fee and they charge you for those services regardless of the need. You can very easily be expected, depending on the state, to pay for an apartment, food, cell phone, clothing, cable and a host of expenses. Some states do not allow it but they also have much lower placement rates. You need to ask about how many waiting families there are, how many placements did they do last year, how many placements did they do this year, how many waiting families adopt in one year, two years, three years, four years, five years and how many give up/adopt another avenue, etc. It is not an easy or simple process for most, for some, yes, but for most, its very complicated.

How the credit works is if you pay $12,000 in federal taxes the year you finalize, you then will get that back. If you only pay $6,000, you will get $6,000 back the year you finalize and then you can get $6,000 back the next year. They regularly change the rules so it may be different when you adopt. If you pay $1000 in taxes a year, then, well, you aren't going to see it for a long time. Right now because of fraud, they are heavily scrutinize the adoption credit requests. You will have to provide documentation, which should not be an issue and you can only claim specific allowable expenses.

Thank you. I believe we do pay $12,500 in federal taxes a year. And I will ask more questions about birth mother costs, which none of the agencies addressed other than to indicate that tjey apply for Medicare on behalf of the birth mothers. It seems a bit like extortion to ask for all the birth mother's expenses to be paid. This expectation is why we ruled out a gestational carrier arrangement, because it feels entirely too much like a commercial transaction as opposed to parenting a child in the stead of someone who has selflessly decided they cannot. Perhaps I AM naive about the motivations of some birth mothers, by the sound of it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You get an credit of the amount (forget what - $12,000 or so). Basically, it reduces your tax liability for that year and if you did not pay that much in taxes, it carries over. Be prepared to spend a lot more than that. $20,000 is conservative if you get lucky quickly. We basically lived off of one salary and put mine toward adoption paying cash as we went. We did not want to risk getting into debt. We probably spent between $40-50,000 on different agency's, advertising and attorneys. Our actual adoption was only about $14,000.

Honestly, if you have one child, I would not adopt if you cannot afford to pay cash. It was worth it for one. If you can adopt quickly, hassle free, it is worth it but there are no guarantees, agency's want a lot of money up front and do not have to provide you with a child, lots of scams, attorneys are a rip-off, etc. If you did not have a child, its worth it.

Thanks. I don't need advice on whether to add a second (that's intensely personal) but I do appreciate the info on costs. I don't live in DC so I am not worried about scams, multiple agencies, advertising, etc. We've thoroughly vetted possible agencies and have spoken to parents who've used them. You don't pay the placement fees until you actually have a child placed with you - and there are minimal upfront costs for parent profiles, etc. And all legal fees are included in that $20K figure, which seems to be pretty standard across the board in our part of the country.

Bottom line is what $$ impact did the tax credit have on your refund, and at what HHI?

Scams happen anywhere, not just DC. You really need to look into this as there is more to expenses than just the tax credit. And, just you live in one state, does not mean your child comes from your state. Its not as simple as you are making it out to sound.

So Catholic Charities is lying to me when they say they only place children within my state? And the other agencies that we've spoke to, that have been recommended by adoptive parents we've met, are lying when they say they only place children from within the state? All of these people, the adoptive parents included, are lying to me? Including the licensing agencies for the state with whom we've inquired about these agencies?

I'm not trying to argue, but we are not THAT naive. It's not like I'm placing an ad on Craigslist.

Anonymous wrote:See, this is what confuses me:

"2.The maximum amount of the credit is $12,650 that means you can reduce your 2012 tax bill by up to $12,650."

Does this mean that if we owe $0 in taxes (which we try very hard to do every year), that we'd get a refund of $12,650?

How much a year to you pay in taxes? If you owe $0, that only means you got your deductions correct. If you pay taxes, in order to get the $12,000 back, you have to pay $12,000 in federal taxes. If you have low income and do not pay $12,000 in taxes, you will only get that money back the amount you paid in. You can carry the credit over to other years, but you still have to pay in the money in order to get it back. You really need to talk to a tax specialist who understand the credit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have adopted domestically twice, and both times was given estimates of around $20,000. Both times, it cost over $40,000 once the additional costs mentioned above are added in. Also, many birthmothers have additional expenses -- such as a need for housing, clothing, utility payments -- that are not covered by Medicaid. One of the reasons that they may be placing is that they lack these basic necessities and, in order for them to live and eat before they give birth the PAPs are frequently asked to contribute to, if not wholly subsidize, these expenses. Sorry, I can't help you with the tax credit but your agency or lawyer should have the answer to that question at the tip of their fingers.

Good to know. It will be something for us to ask. We will probably go through Catholic Charities and in the information they provided, they mentioned nothing of subsidizing housing and health care costs for birth mothers. I don't know if the church covers it or what, but I am not prepared to take care of health care at full cost for several months, unless there is a way to add the birth mother to our insurance.

You cannot add a birthmother to your insurance. Most of the time you pay for agency fees, homestudy fees, attorney fees and birthparent expenses, not including travel. You will probably pay some medical. Some birthmothers get state insurance but if not, you are expected to pay cash for the medical appointments and birth. Most often, the agencies forget to say the extra's. Only the very expensive agencies will include as a flat fee and they charge you for those services regardless of the need. You can very easily be expected, depending on the state, to pay for an apartment, food, cell phone, clothing, cable and a host of expenses. Some states do not allow it but they also have much lower placement rates. You need to ask about how many waiting families there are, how many placements did they do last year, how many placements did they do this year, how many waiting families adopt in one year, two years, three years, four years, five years and how many give up/adopt another avenue, etc. It is not an easy or simple process for most, for some, yes, but for most, its very complicated.

How the credit works is if you pay $12,000 in federal taxes the year you finalize, you then will get that back. If you only pay $6,000, you will get $6,000 back the year you finalize and then you can get $6,000 back the next year. They regularly change the rules so it may be different when you adopt. If you pay $1000 in taxes a year, then, well, you aren't going to see it for a long time. Right now because of fraud, they are heavily scrutinize the adoption credit requests. You will have to provide documentation, which should not be an issue and you can only claim specific allowable expenses.