Anonymous wrote:Architects charge a percentage of the job so it is their incentive to rack up the price

Architects charge a % of the up front budget, so there is an incentive for them to design to your budget. Also, while some architects charge piece-meal (i.e. additional for construction monitoring) most full-service firms include everything in their lump sum 6-8%.

NP here, just to bust into this discussion a bit - we're getting ready to start interviewing folks (DB firms and architects) on our major addition, and I have no idea what kinds of questions to ask. Does anyone have suggestions for a place to start a conversation/interview?

Anonymous wrote:Builder-man here...

main feedback is hire who you trust and if you can't trust the allowances then you perhaps you should not trust the contractor.

And, I do get tired of hearing Architects marketing that they need to manage the bid process (for a fee) and the builder because the builder will cut corners. Managing the bid process is an income stream for them; having to redesign because of designs that exceed budget is an income stream; and managing construction is an income stream.

They should sell their value; not that the client needs protection from a builder who will cut corners. Well, who was paid to manage a competitive bid situation ? Who is making it about lowest dollars. You didn't hire architect based on low bid, why should you hire builder ? And you don't think that their buddies don't get last look ? BS. Happens all the time...

If they had any balls they would just do design build themselves - but ask of any of them and they will tell you the building part is a pain in the ass. So they don't want to do it but they begrudge the builder making money on their plans. In truth, we should go back to the master builder concept that existed before architects separated from builders. And that is why Design Build is actually superior. You get a better product, because a master builder takes it from design to implementation. So me, personally, I would go Design Build every day. And that's from a builder....

Yes & No (again)... we had a good architect and a good contractor. It was worth it for us to have someone who knew more than I do as the arbiter of what can be substituted and can be changed and what can't... Construction oversight fees from architect were not that much in the scheme of things and definitely ensured that a few things were re-done or caught early (even with a quality builder with integrity). We had no redesigns because of exceeding budget and no change orders due to errors or oversight by either architect or contractor.

We had no serious issues to resolve because architect, builder and we were on top of things and coordinating and communicating from start to finish.

I respect your experience but I don't believe that you or any particular builder are the sole authority who I want to trust with a couple/few hundred thousand $ of work where it's builder's view vs. mine. I want an experienced second opinion, in this case, the architect. Some things they raised we said were not an issue and were fine or we worked out between the builder, architect and us. Others we asked the builder to rethink or stick to original plan.

Your last point assumes -- again, with respect to your experience -- that you, or any particular builder are, in fact, a "Master Builder." Since there is no such certification or guarantee, your point is a good one in theory but it's not realistic to think it will fit all builders and all situations in the real world (IMO/ IME).

If I was a builder I would agree with you 100%. As a customer/owner, I've seen the value of having the oversight of an architect working with a quality builder (remembering that "value" does not mean "cheapest price.").

We just finished a $300k plus renovation and came in just $3,000 over budget. The more work you put in ahead of time, the more accurate the budget will be. We had researched and knew what appliances we wanted, the materials we would use for counters (kitchen and bath) and floors before we sent the job out for bid. A contractor can present a very favorable bid if there are a large number of "allowances" that bear no reality to what you will choose. For instance, we looked at cabinet knobs that cost as little as $2 and as much as $15 a piece. If the contractor provided an allowance based on $2, our final selections which were in the $7 range would have been off. Same for the counter-tops. You can get a good price on granite right now, but we wanted soapstone. If the price had been based on granite, we would have needed a change order because soapstone currently costs a bit more. I was very clear that nothing makes me feel like I am being ripped off more than getting a price that turns out to be much lower than the actual cost.

The one thing I would have done differently, however, was to keep a tighter rein during the initial design process. There were a number of "you know what would look great" things added that when we got the initial bids, the costs were much higher than I wanted and I had to remind everyone about what we initially wanted to accomplish with the renovation. It is was too easy to get caught up in the idea of adding a powder room to the first floor and redoing the entry floor when you are doing the initial drawings. Resist the urge. Be flexible, but keep the goals of the project in mind. It will save you time.

And be honest with the arch or designer. My wife waited to admit that she wanted to move the shower from one wall to another and move the vanities in the bathroom until after we had obtained our building permit. I am glad she finally said something before we broke ground, but I wish she had spoken up sooner.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plan that you will exceed every allowance the contractor quotes you and possibly by many thousands for cabinets, granite, lighting, etc. Look carefully at allowances.

This is one of the primary reasons to have a good architect...they will counsel up front on realistic materials allowances.

I beg to differ...Builder here - just last week when I mentioned to a high end architect in the middle of "value engineering" some plans that did not price out that it would ultimately be cheaper for the client to build as designed/priced then for client to pay archi to redesign and rebid he looked at me like the cat that ate the canary...oohh,,or the other architect who told me a couple of months back that I could a job I was bidding on if I did some work on his house for free...both architects design multi million dollar residences...and after they are through apprising you how they will protect you from the nefarious builders - who protects you from the architect ?

or the knuckleheads that spec 11 inches of foam insulation @ .45 an inch when a) there are active class action lawsuits regarding foam off gassing and b) insulation reaches 97 percent efficiency at about 5 inches...why - its not their money. Or the kickbacks they solicit from contractors and the material vendors they spec...I could go on and on....

Don't be so naive...

yes & no ... we did not exceed most of our allowances on a major project because things were spec'd well/right up front, so few or no changes and we still got what we wanted. Went slightly over on lighting and on target or below on plumbing, appliances, countertops, flooring, etc. OTOH to be fair, builders, too, can try for an alternative to this or that spec'd by architect and that may or may not be OK. Some were fine, in a couple of cases for good reason the original spec was required/kept. Neither builders nor architects have a monopoly on honor or integrity, you have to deal with each as people. Some are good, some are less so ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

Good idea. Can you recommend anyone that does work in N. Arlington?

I can recommend Archaeon architects in Cabin John. We did a major renovation/addition with them that turned out well. They did detailed cost projections and we got bids from 3 contractors they've had good experience with (2 of them for many years). The cost projections were vetted by my cousin (our reality check), an architect in another city, and he thought they were in the ballpark. Two of the 3 bids were within ~3% of each other (and at the projection); the 3rd bid was ridiculously high, more than 20%, so was eliminated from consideration.

If you have any special consideration (we had tree preservation as one) design-build may not have the flexibility you want. Regarding over $300k suggesting a teardown, we did ask just to have the information to consider, and the cost projection for a teardown was significantly higher than the renovation (of about 60% of the house) and addition (nearly doubling space) that we did (we were not particularly interested in a teardown since our house was basically sound and well built).

They also do design/build. Any particular reason why you decided to go with the bidding approach instead?

As I mentioned, we had some unique considerations and we (they & we) didn't think D-B approach would address them better.

I think they do D-B as an alternative or in a situation where less tailoring may be needed (they can answer that better than I can explain it) but we had some lot access issues (narrow access to rear yard, no access from front yard on one side for the most part), critical need to save/protect 2 large trees, etc. I am sure it cost a bit more to do it this way but I also think that the result is better and worth it (we're happy and neighbors & friends like the result). Best, of course, would be to discuss particulars of your situation with them and see if D-B would work there.

Architects charge a percentage of the job so it is their incentive to rack up the price

Builder-man here...

main feedback is hire who you trust and if you can't trust the allowances then you perhaps you should not trust the contractor.

And, I do get tired of hearing Architects marketing that they need to manage the bid process (for a fee) and the builder because the builder will cut corners. Managing the bid process is an income stream for them; having to redesign because of designs that exceed budget is an income stream; and managing construction is an income stream.

They should sell their value; not that the client needs protection from a builder who will cut corners. Well, who was paid to manage a competitive bid situation ? Who is making it about lowest dollars. You didn't hire architect based on low bid, why should you hire builder ? And you don't think that their buddies don't get last look ? BS. Happens all the time...

If they had any balls they would just do design build themselves - but ask of any of them and they will tell you the building part is a pain in the ass. So they don't want to do it but they begrudge the builder making money on their plans. In truth, we should go back to the master builder concept that existed before architects separated from builders. And that is why Design Build is actually superior. You get a better product, because a master builder takes it from design to implementation. So me, personally, I would go Design Build every day. And that's from a builder....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plan that you will exceed every allowance the contractor quotes you and possibly by many thousands for cabinets, granite, lighting, etc. Look carefully at allowances.

This is one of the primary reasons to have a good architect...they will counsel up front on realistic materials allowances.

I beg to differ...Builder here - just last week when I mentioned to a high end architect in the middle of "value engineering" some plans that did not price out that it would ultimately be cheaper for the client to build as designed/priced then for client to pay archi to redesign and rebid he looked at me like the cat that ate the canary...oohh,,or the other architect who told me a couple of months back that I could a job I was bidding on if I did some work on his house for free...both architects design multi million dollar residences...and after they are through apprising you how they will protect you from the nefarious builders - who protects you from the architect ?

or the knuckleheads that spec 11 inches of foam insulation @ .45 an inch when a) there are active class action lawsuits regarding foam off gassing and b) insulation reaches 97 percent efficiency at about 5 inches...why - its not their money. Or the kickbacks they solicit from contractors and the material vendors they spec...I could go on and on....

Don't be so naive...

Oooh, keep posting builder-man! This is helpful inside knowledge.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plan that you will exceed every allowance the contractor quotes you and possibly by many thousands for cabinets, granite, lighting, etc. Look carefully at allowances.

This is one of the primary reasons to have a good architect...they will counsel up front on realistic materials allowances.

I beg to differ...Builder here - just last week when I mentioned to a high end architect in the middle of "value engineering" some plans that did not price out that it would ultimately be cheaper for the client to build as designed/priced then for client to pay archi to redesign and rebid he looked at me like the cat that ate the canary...oohh,,or the other architect who told me a couple of months back that I could a job I was bidding on if I did some work on his house for free...both architects design multi million dollar residences...and after they are through apprising you how they will protect you from the nefarious builders - who protects you from the architect ?

or the knuckleheads that spec 11 inches of foam insulation @ .45 an inch when a) there are active class action lawsuits regarding foam off gassing and b) insulation reaches 97 percent efficiency at about 5 inches...why - its not their money. Or the kickbacks they solicit from contractors and the material vendors they spec...I could go on and on....

Don't be so naive...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

Good idea. Can you recommend anyone that does work in N. Arlington?

I can recommend Archaeon architects in Cabin John. We did a major renovation/addition with them that turned out well. They did detailed cost projections and we got bids from 3 contractors they've had good experience with (2 of them for many years). The cost projections were vetted by my cousin (our reality check), an architect in another city, and he thought they were in the ballpark. Two of the 3 bids were within ~3% of each other (and at the projection); the 3rd bid was ridiculously high, more than 20%, so was eliminated from consideration.

If you have any special consideration (we had tree preservation as one) design-build may not have the flexibility you want. Regarding over $300k suggesting a teardown, we did ask just to have the information to consider, and the cost projection for a teardown was significantly higher than the renovation (of about 60% of the house) and addition (nearly doubling space) that we did (we were not particularly interested in a teardown since our house was basically sound and well built).

They also do design/build. Any particular reason why you decided to go with the bidding approach instead?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

This was exactly our experience with the aforementioned (but not named) terrible design/build firm. The architect was charming, professional, an excellent salesperson, and good, but the rest of the operation was weak . . . very, very weak, disastrously so. Oh, I have some bad stories.

As a public service to all of us considering this, can you post initials or the first letter in the company name? This is anonymous after all.

Thank you!

I apologize, but I cannot. I posted a review on one site, and received a call from the firm asking that I retract it. I would prefer never to hear from them again.

That's crazy! No wonder angieslist has everyone with all As

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

Good idea. Can you recommend anyone that does work in N. Arlington?

I can recommend Archaeon architects in Cabin John. We did a major renovation/addition with them that turned out well. They did detailed cost projections and we got bids from 3 contractors they've had good experience with (2 of them for many years). The cost projections were vetted by my cousin (our reality check), an architect in another city, and he thought they were in the ballpark. Two of the 3 bids were within ~3% of each other (and at the projection); the 3rd bid was ridiculously high, more than 20%, so was eliminated from consideration.

If you have any special consideration (we had tree preservation as one) design-build may not have the flexibility you want. Regarding over $300k suggesting a teardown, we did ask just to have the information to consider, and the cost projection for a teardown was significantly higher than the renovation (of about 60% of the house) and addition (nearly doubling space) that we did (we were not particularly interested in a teardown since our house was basically sound and well built).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

This was exactly our experience with the aforementioned (but not named) terrible design/build firm. The architect was charming, professional, an excellent salesperson, and good, but the rest of the operation was weak . . . very, very weak, disastrously so. Oh, I have some bad stories.

As a public service to all of us considering this, can you post initials or the first letter in the company name? This is anonymous after all.

Thank you!

I apologize, but I cannot. I posted a review on one site, and received a call from the firm asking that I retract it. I would prefer never to hear from them again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Suggest you interview a separate architect and a separate contractor as well. Usually with a design build firm, one part is good and one part weak.

This was exactly our experience with the aforementioned (but not named) terrible design/build firm. The architect was charming, professional, an excellent salesperson, and good, but the rest of the operation was weak . . . very, very weak, disastrously so. Oh, I have some bad stories.

As a public service to all of us considering this, can you post initials or the first letter in the company name? This is anonymous after all.

Thank you!