Anonymous
10/24/2013 15:10
Subject: Is this racist?
STupid Americans. Unless you're Dutch or European you don't understand our sensibilities and what we consider racist, the history behind Zwarte Piet etc. By the way the European conference is going on, don't you and your president Obama have phones to tap?
Anonymous
10/24/2013 15:05
Subject: Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:It's clearly racist, but the Dutch just can't see it. There is so much racism in Europe it boggles the mind. It is a subtle, racism, though, and widely accepted.
I'm the PP who tore into the dutch poster regarding dutch being so 'open minded culturally/racially'
I can understand sort of the racism that exists in europe from the older people because there just is a LOT less people of color in europe than in the us.
However, how it still persists today is RIDICULOUS.
I'm a pretty big progressive, but i'm also not white....so when i hear my white lefty friends go on and on about the virtues of europe, they never bring up the point you bring up...they are oblivious to it.
Anonymous
10/24/2013 14:50
Subject: Is this racist?
It's clearly racist, but the Dutch just can't see it. There is so much racism in Europe it boggles the mind. It is a subtle, racism, though, and widely accepted.
Anonymous
10/24/2013 13:41
Subject: Is this racist?
I think the black face thing is something older generations get much more up in arms about. Doesn't bother me at all.
Anonymous
10/24/2013 13:33
Subject: Is this racist?
Is it too late to point out that Americans never actually used the term Redskin, so it being considered a once derogatory or inflammatory term is complete BS.
HTTR
HTTR
Anonymous
10/24/2013 13:20
Subject: Re:Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:Being Dutch, I don't think it's racist. See, those aren't clown or monkey clothes. The cap and the feather from the middle ages... just like the rest of the outfit. Sinterklaas is actually a saint who ended up granting slaves their freedom. One ex-slave we call Piet (Pete) stuck around with Sinterklaas (of which Santa Clause and the Elves are derived) to help him in his good deeds. Now we call him Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) and, quite obviously, he's a black man who is depicted as such in his character. More and more black pete's have joined the scene over time because the character is so popular among Dutch children. Where Sinterklaas is stern and carries a big book in which it states whether you were naughty or nice (He sees everything!) Zwarte Piet carries candy and presents which he hands out to the children.
Obviously this character can be offensive to non-natives but black people who were born and raised in the Netherlands generally don't care and the majority of them participate in the celebration.
Dutch people get upset when they feel wrongly accused of racism, especially since the Netherlands has done so much to make everyone feel welcome in the country. The Netherlands is know to be the most multicultural accepting country in the world and now some lady from Jamaica who works for the UN tells us Sinterklaas should be abolished. Sinterklaas is such a big thing in the Netherlands. Kids absolutely love it.
The kids think Pete is black because he goes up and down chimneys to bring presents. So, some people say, well why not just have a couple of black smears over your face? Even if the Dutch felt the need to be more PC about their misunderstood holiday it would simply not work that way. Parents, neighbors, family members or friends will dress up as Sinterklaas and Black Pete to visit homes of their nices, nephews, friend's kids, etc. The black make-up makes it impossible for them to be recognized. A few smears of "soot" would not have that effect.
I completely undertand why someone from the US would think Black Pete's depiction is a racist stereotype because I have lived in the US for the past 8 years. But, I can tell you that you'd feel differently if you had grown up with and fully understood the concept of the celebration and Zwarte Piet. I hope I helped you understand it a little better.
yes the dutch are very welcoming........especially when you attend a feyenoord-ajax game and feyenoord ultras start bellowing out "hamas, hamas, joden aan het gas"
and dutch settlers that became afrikaaners were the architects of apartheid
and your historical ties to the atlantic slave trade.
what you are essentially saying is "if you grew up where there is no black people, you would see its all fun and games".
and the fact that geert wilders and the freedom party actually hold some seats in pariliament.
Anonymous
10/24/2013 12:57
Subject: Re:Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:So, some people say, well why not just have a couple of black smears over your face? Even if the Dutch felt the need to be more PC about their misunderstood holiday it would simply not work that way. Parents, neighbors, family members or friends will dress up as Sinterklaas and Black Pete to visit homes of their nices, nephews, friend's kids, etc. The black make-up makes it impossible for them to be recognized. A few smears of "soot" would not have that effect.
You realize that other colors of paint are available, yes?
Anonymous
10/24/2013 12:46
Subject: Is this racist?
You talk about the Netherlands being the most multiculturally accepting country in the world.
You don't mention at all the Dutch role in the slave trade.
Do you think that your county's role in the slave trade is relevant to whether the Dutch using a black character like this is racist?
You don't mention at all the Dutch role in the slave trade.
Do you think that your county's role in the slave trade is relevant to whether the Dutch using a black character like this is racist?
Anonymous
10/24/2013 10:25
Subject: Re:Is this racist?
It may be good for me to add that neither Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) or Sinterklaas are seen as actual people. They are like Santa and the elves, magical figures. We could argue that the elves of Santa are discriminating depictions of little people but then with pointy ears. Of course that would be ridiculous and that's the way Dutch people feel about black Pete and Sinterklaas being racist.
Anonymous
10/24/2013 10:20
Subject: Re:Is this racist?
Being Dutch, I don't think it's racist. See, those aren't clown or monkey clothes. The cap and the feather from the middle ages... just like the rest of the outfit. Sinterklaas is actually a saint who ended up granting slaves their freedom. One ex-slave we call Piet (Pete) stuck around with Sinterklaas (of which Santa Clause and the Elves are derived) to help him in his good deeds. Now we call him Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) and, quite obviously, he's a black man who is depicted as such in his character. More and more black pete's have joined the scene over time because the character is so popular among Dutch children. Where Sinterklaas is stern and carries a big book in which it states whether you were naughty or nice (He sees everything!) Zwarte Piet carries candy and presents which he hands out to the children.
Obviously this character can be offensive to non-natives but black people who were born and raised in the Netherlands generally don't care and the majority of them participate in the celebration.
Dutch people get upset when they feel wrongly accused of racism, especially since the Netherlands has done so much to make everyone feel welcome in the country. The Netherlands is know to be the most multicultural accepting country in the world and now some lady from Jamaica who works for the UN tells us Sinterklaas should be abolished. Sinterklaas is such a big thing in the Netherlands. Kids absolutely love it.
The kids think Pete is black because he goes up and down chimneys to bring presents. So, some people say, well why not just have a couple of black smears over your face? Even if the Dutch felt the need to be more PC about their misunderstood holiday it would simply not work that way. Parents, neighbors, family members or friends will dress up as Sinterklaas and Black Pete to visit homes of their nices, nephews, friend's kids, etc. The black make-up makes it impossible for them to be recognized. A few smears of "soot" would not have that effect.
I completely undertand why someone from the US would think Black Pete's depiction is a racist stereotype because I have lived in the US for the past 8 years. But, I can tell you that you'd feel differently if you had grown up with and fully understood the concept of the celebration and Zwarte Piet. I hope I helped you understand it a little better.
Obviously this character can be offensive to non-natives but black people who were born and raised in the Netherlands generally don't care and the majority of them participate in the celebration.
Dutch people get upset when they feel wrongly accused of racism, especially since the Netherlands has done so much to make everyone feel welcome in the country. The Netherlands is know to be the most multicultural accepting country in the world and now some lady from Jamaica who works for the UN tells us Sinterklaas should be abolished. Sinterklaas is such a big thing in the Netherlands. Kids absolutely love it.
The kids think Pete is black because he goes up and down chimneys to bring presents. So, some people say, well why not just have a couple of black smears over your face? Even if the Dutch felt the need to be more PC about their misunderstood holiday it would simply not work that way. Parents, neighbors, family members or friends will dress up as Sinterklaas and Black Pete to visit homes of their nices, nephews, friend's kids, etc. The black make-up makes it impossible for them to be recognized. A few smears of "soot" would not have that effect.
I completely undertand why someone from the US would think Black Pete's depiction is a racist stereotype because I have lived in the US for the past 8 years. But, I can tell you that you'd feel differently if you had grown up with and fully understood the concept of the celebration and Zwarte Piet. I hope I helped you understand it a little better.
Anonymous
10/23/2013 19:39
Subject: Is this racist?
The interesting thing is that the Dutch Embassy encourages the ritual every yeear.
They are located in Washington, DC, a town with a lot of race-history. Don't care, I guess.
They are located in Washington, DC, a town with a lot of race-history. Don't care, I guess.
Anonymous
10/23/2013 19:05
Subject: Is this racist?
Don't know much about Black Pete but don't forget that the architects of apartheid in South Africa, the Afrikaners, are descended from Dutch settlers. The Netherlands was a huge colonial power at one time, too.
Anonymous
10/23/2013 18:53
Subject: Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:takoma wrote:Seems kind of similar to the "Redskins" controversy about how to handle a tradition that some cling to with no adverse racial intent, and others view as a relic of an ugly old stereotype.
Clearly dressing up in black-face and a velveteen monkey suit is an "homage" to the strength and pride of the African people.
You, ma'am, win the Internet. I salute the snark.
Anonymous
10/23/2013 18:28
Subject: Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Just curious what people think here of black pete, the St Nick companion in the Netherlands.
It's interesting to me that a historically white country so shamelessly uses a black face character, but not sure if American morals necessary translate to other countries directly.
They dont.
No, it is totally racist. And the only reason it hasn't come to a head in that country is because there are not that many black people in the Netherlands.
Anonymous
10/23/2013 18:18
Subject: Is this racist?
Anonymous wrote:Just curious what people think here of black pete, the St Nick companion in the Netherlands.
It's interesting to me that a historically white country so shamelessly uses a black face character, but not sure if American morals necessary translate to other countries directly.
Of course it's racist! This history about Black Pete has recently gain more attention within the last few years. There have been protests and boycotts about the usage of Black Pete in the Netherlands. However, this racist tradition still lives on. Some Dutch people are very adamant about not letting go of their usage of Black Pete. Even the children stories associated with Black Pete are racist. However, there are so many other issues with racism amongst the Dutch that are way more disturbing than Black Pete.