Anonymous
08/04/2013 12:26
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
That's not what I was saying at all, nor am I a social conservative. I'm a liberal who voted for Obama twice. I just pointed out that success in school depends more on reading than on daddy's bank account. I know plenty of high SES kids who have every gadget created as soon as it gets out, go to camp every week to summer and even have nannies pick them up after school who can't do math. It's basically a matter of parents who value books more than gadgets, TV, etc., regardless of income level. High SES parents can run away from their kids faster than low SES parents.
There's a *ton* of literature on this, and pretty much none of it supports what you're saying. Obviously there are a lot of factors, economic and cultural, but the "stickiest" one is essentially "how much schooling has the mother completed." The rest of the cultural traits tend to flow from there. As I said, simply telling kids to get better parents doesn't advance the argument very much.
This city spends a huge amount of money in the name of helping its poor. But probably far more would be accomplished by shifting some of that to adult education on literacy, values and life skills. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
Totally agree, we could do much better by investing in early education and adult literacy, both ends of the spectrum and less in the middle. Motivation, parenting, and resources are key. There are just as many unmotivated people sitting at home in the countries were most of our immigrants come from who are not getting educated, so of course those that struggle to leave their own country and come to a new one for a better life have a different kind of motivation that low SES parents who have lived in poverty in the US. There are also many immigrants who don't succeed in America due to having illiterate and low literate parents who work all the time to make ends meet, many Latino students from poor uneducated families are not doing as well for example in DCPS as the African students who often already speak English and may have come here legally or through refugee status. All immigrants do not hate the same story; I should know I'm one of them.
Anonymous
08/04/2013 04:29
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
I'm curious: do you think there's no difference? Or to put it more bluntly, do you believe there are any negative characteristics that correspond to poverty? If not, why do we bother trying to address poverty in America in any way? I always thought it was because those living in poverty--and their children--experience hardship. Guess not.
Not the PP but I think it's a combination of things - hardship and environment being big players, but culture is also an important consideration. Compare for example immigrants coming from extreme poverty - they came because they are extremely motivated, and given their motivation are far more likely to succeed. A culture of motivation or lack thereof is a big piece of the puzzle, and no doubt a far better determinant of what makes the difference between ordinary poverty of hardship versus multi-generational poverty.
The "immigrant coming from extreme poverty whose children always succeed" is a bit of a myth. Most immigrants to the US are either educated, middle-class people in their home countries. Or if they weren't, they already had such high barriers to overcome in order to immigrate to the US they're extreme outliers. For example, consider what it would take for an impoverished peasant in Guatemala to make it to the US. They don't just get on a plane one day and come to the US. Whether they immigrate legally or illegally, there is a huge amount of saving that needs to happen.
So the whole, "immigrants do great!" thing is a bit of a cop-out.
Reality check: What would qualify as "middle class" in Honduras or Nicaragua is about 10 times poorer than the typical FARMS household in DC. Yet, they will do whatever it takes, make whatever sacrifices necessary to come here, work hard, and if their kids end up in our schools, they will push them hard to do well in school. They see opportunity, and they seize opportunity - where so many Americans sadly do not. They will walk miles of unpaved road, cross streams and jungle to get to school - even if it's a one-room building with a dirt floor. Kids in places like Afghanistan will brave risks like being shot just for having the audacity to try and get educated. Here we have kids shuffling in 2 hours late to their neighborhood school that's just 2 blocks away - only to space out and whine about having to do any work. And that's if they even bother showing up at all, since they'd rather just hang out on a corner and do nothing. In Guatemala, if a kid's not in school, then he's probably out putting in a long day working to help the family put food on the table.
So the whole, "life's so hard for FARMS kids in DC" is a bit of a cop-out.
+1000. Enough excuses. Life indeed can be hard, but in most cases ( not all) it is hard mostly because of parents' behavior. Opportunities and support here are better than in most countries in the world.
Anonymous
08/03/2013 23:53
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
FARMS are gaining just give'em time. Remember people said there eould never be a Black President during their lifetime.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 14:58
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
That's not what I was saying at all, nor am I a social conservative. I'm a liberal who voted for Obama twice. I just pointed out that success in school depends more on reading than on daddy's bank account. I know plenty of high SES kids who have every gadget created as soon as it gets out, go to camp every week to summer and even have nannies pick them up after school who can't do math. It's basically a matter of parents who value books more than gadgets, TV, etc., regardless of income level. High SES parents can run away from their kids faster than low SES parents.
There's a *ton* of literature on this, and pretty much none of it supports what you're saying. Obviously there are a lot of factors, economic and cultural, but the "stickiest" one is essentially "how much schooling has the mother completed." The rest of the cultural traits tend to flow from there. As I said, simply telling kids to get better parents doesn't advance the argument very much.
You're imputing to me something I never said. I never once implied that the kids should "get better parents," that's your projection. I simply pointed out that reading is the key. My grandmother left DC public schools at 14 and never got past a GS 3, but she took my mom to the library every week and my mom finished high school. She in turn took me to the library weekly and I finished college. I take my kids to the library weekly and I fully expect them to go to grad school. You would have doomed my mom to failure by your own hypothesis. I simply say that opportunities to read and learn -- like the library and tutoring -- exist at every income level.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 13:56
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
That's not what I was saying at all, nor am I a social conservative. I'm a liberal who voted for Obama twice. I just pointed out that success in school depends more on reading than on daddy's bank account. I know plenty of high SES kids who have every gadget created as soon as it gets out, go to camp every week to summer and even have nannies pick them up after school who can't do math. It's basically a matter of parents who value books more than gadgets, TV, etc., regardless of income level. High SES parents can run away from their kids faster than low SES parents.
There's a *ton* of literature on this, and pretty much none of it supports what you're saying. Obviously there are a lot of factors, economic and cultural, but the "stickiest" one is essentially "how much schooling has the mother completed." The rest of the cultural traits tend to flow from there. As I said, simply telling kids to get better parents doesn't advance the argument very much.
This city spends a huge amount of money in the name of helping its poor. But probably far more would be accomplished by shifting some of that to adult education on literacy, values and life skills. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 13:47
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
I'm curious: do you think there's no difference? Or to put it more bluntly, do you believe there are any negative characteristics that correspond to poverty? If not, why do we bother trying to address poverty in America in any way? I always thought it was because those living in poverty--and their children--experience hardship. Guess not.
Not the PP but I think it's a combination of things - hardship and environment being big players, but culture is also an important consideration. Compare for example immigrants coming from extreme poverty - they came because they are extremely motivated, and given their motivation are far more likely to succeed. A culture of motivation or lack thereof is a big piece of the puzzle, and no doubt a far better determinant of what makes the difference between ordinary poverty of hardship versus multi-generational poverty.
The "immigrant coming from extreme poverty whose children always succeed" is a bit of a myth. Most immigrants to the US are either educated, middle-class people in their home countries. Or if they weren't, they already had such high barriers to overcome in order to immigrate to the US they're extreme outliers. For example, consider what it would take for an impoverished peasant in Guatemala to make it to the US. They don't just get on a plane one day and come to the US. Whether they immigrate legally or illegally, there is a huge amount of saving that needs to happen.
So the whole, "immigrants do great!" thing is a bit of a cop-out.
Reality check: What would qualify as "middle class" in Honduras or Nicaragua is about 10 times poorer than the typical FARMS household in DC. Yet, they will do whatever it takes, make whatever sacrifices necessary to come here, work hard, and if their kids end up in our schools, they will push them hard to do well in school. They see opportunity, and they seize opportunity - where so many Americans sadly do not. They will walk miles of unpaved road, cross streams and jungle to get to school - even if it's a one-room building with a dirt floor. Kids in places like Afghanistan will brave risks like being shot just for having the audacity to try and get educated. Here we have kids shuffling in 2 hours late to their neighborhood school that's just 2 blocks away - only to space out and whine about having to do any work. And that's if they even bother showing up at all, since they'd rather just hang out on a corner and do nothing. In Guatemala, if a kid's not in school, then he's probably out putting in a long day working to help the family put food on the table.
So the whole, "life's so hard for FARMS kids in DC" is a bit of a cop-out.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:44
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
That's not what I was saying at all, nor am I a social conservative. I'm a liberal who voted for Obama twice. I just pointed out that success in school depends more on reading than on daddy's bank account. I know plenty of high SES kids who have every gadget created as soon as it gets out, go to camp every week to summer and even have nannies pick them up after school who can't do math. It's basically a matter of parents who value books more than gadgets, TV, etc., regardless of income level. High SES parents can run away from their kids faster than low SES parents.
There's a *ton* of literature on this, and pretty much none of it supports what you're saying. Obviously there are a lot of factors, economic and cultural, but the "stickiest" one is essentially "how much schooling has the mother completed." The rest of the cultural traits tend to flow from there. As I said, simply telling kids to get better parents doesn't advance the argument very much.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:41
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
That's not what I was saying at all, nor am I a social conservative. I'm a liberal who voted for Obama twice. I just pointed out that success in school depends more on reading than on daddy's bank account. I know plenty of high SES kids who have every gadget created as soon as it gets out, go to camp every week to summer and even have nannies pick them up after school who can't do math. It's basically a matter of parents who value books more than gadgets, TV, etc., regardless of income level. High SES parents can run away from their kids faster than low SES parents.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:38
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
I'm curious: do you think there's no difference? Or to put it more bluntly, do you believe there are any negative characteristics that correspond to poverty? If not, why do we bother trying to address poverty in America in any way? I always thought it was because those living in poverty--and their children--experience hardship. Guess not.
Not the PP but I think it's a combination of things - hardship and environment being big players, but culture is also an important consideration. Compare for example immigrants coming from extreme poverty - they came because they are extremely motivated, and given their motivation are far more likely to succeed. A culture of motivation or lack thereof is a big piece of the puzzle, and no doubt a far better determinant of what makes the difference between ordinary poverty of hardship versus multi-generational poverty.
The "immigrant coming from extreme poverty whose children always succeed" is a bit of a myth. Most immigrants to the US are either educated, middle-class people in their home countries. Or if they weren't, they already had such high barriers to overcome in order to immigrate to the US they're extreme outliers. For example, consider what it would take for an impoverished peasant in Guatemala to make it to the US. They don't just get on a plane one day and come to the US. Whether they immigrate legally or illegally, there is a huge amount of saving that needs to happen.
So the whole, "immigrants do great!" thing is a bit of a cop-out.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:32
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Are the major gains that DCPS and DC PCS students have made in DC CAS due to/due in part to increased numbers of high SES students entering schools?
The presentation made by DCPS http://dc.gov/DCPS/Files/downloads/ABOUT%20DCPS/Announcements/2013%20DC%20CAS%20Presentation-Final.pdf) at p. 39, shows a gain for FARM (14,306 students) from 28.4% in 2007 to 37.6% in 2009, dropping in the next two years, but regaining 37.6% in 2013.
If poorer students did well this year - are overall gains attributable at all to increasing income? Is any of it to do with more entering students who are not FARM students?
I don't mean to push any agenda with this - I want to know what people think about whether DC is actually getting better at educating students who are low income, or whether demographic shifts are driving some of this.
Thanks.
It's so hard to tell, especially because in the past testing gains at some schools with high FARMS rates seem to have been caused mainly by cheating (Erase to the Top). I also question whether schools are focusing on getting students on the cusp of passing up to proficiency, rather than focusing on students who are more significantly behind--this was an issue with who was eligible to attend summer school. I'd like to see information on year-over-year average changes in individual student performance with some breakdown that would show how students who started out below basic, basic, proficient, and advanced changed as they went from third to fifth grade, for example.
How well DCPS is educating low-income student is a hugely important question, but one that's difficult to answer given how DCPS packages its performance.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:29
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
I'm curious: do you think there's no difference? Or to put it more bluntly, do you believe there are any negative characteristics that correspond to poverty? If not, why do we bother trying to address poverty in America in any way? I always thought it was because those living in poverty--and their children--experience hardship. Guess not.
Not the PP but I think it's a combination of things - hardship and environment being big players, but culture is also an important consideration. Compare for example immigrants coming from extreme poverty - they came because they are extremely motivated, and given their motivation are far more likely to succeed. A culture of motivation or lack thereof is a big piece of the puzzle, and no doubt a far better determinant of what makes the difference between ordinary poverty of hardship versus multi-generational poverty.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:22
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
To get to PP's earlier point, though, the scores for all subgroups made gains. So while high SES kids gained, so did low SES kids. Of course, that doesn't mean that high SES kids didn't also gain as a share of total DCPS population. (Haven't seen any figures for that).
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:20
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
I'm curious: do you think there's no difference? Or to put it more bluntly, do you believe there are any negative characteristics that correspond to poverty? If not, why do we bother trying to address poverty in America in any way? I always thought it was because those living in poverty--and their children--experience hardship. Guess not.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:17
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:SES means more than income level. Your children have educated parents who have high expectations for their children and send them to school ready to learn. That is what drives the SES difference, income is just a handy proxy for a household with those characteristics.
+1000
While PP is crowing about their parenting skills, and how even if DH loses his job, their "straight A+" kids will continue to perform, what she's really saying is "my kids' mother has a high level of 'educational attainment'". Which is pretty much the only thing that matters.
Social conservatives who think they can fix the broken system by exhorting parents of low-performing kids to "take responsibility" or "get involved" need to understand that the problems go much deeper. You might just as well advise poor kids to get reborn with better parents.
Anonymous
08/02/2013 10:17
Subject: Do DC CAS gains track increasing income?
Anonymous wrote:This is like pre-season when will the leagues of FARM and SES start training camp?
Really, SES thinks that FARM don't value education or they aren't educated.
This is league is so much vicious than the Us vs Them league.
Unfortunately it's true that a segment of the low-SES community does not value education. There is a cultural element that at its extremes has a fundamental disrespect for and rejection of education, together with misguided notions and characterizations, for example saying it's' "acting white" to strive to be educated. It spits in the face of all those who fought for, sacrificed for, and in some cases died for the right of the disadvantaged and underprivileged to get an education. But, they don't know better - it's a cultural meme working its way through parts of our society like a disease.