Anonymous wrote:I agree that its too bad more midwives aren't willing to just HELP women get through birth, whichever way they need to get through it. Would I love to have a midwife because of their extensive experience, special attention and knowledge of positioning etc? Of course! But am I willing to COMMIT to a natural childbirth (after experiencing an extremely painful 20 hour labor that was made bearable by an epidural) and then feeling like a failure? Absolutely not.

Why can't a midwife just say, "we are going to try and assure that you have the birth you want and if that means an epi then lovely!" Instead of "kind of making fun of you for begging for it" after the fact, as one PP said. This is why the movement gets a bad rap.

I posted earlier, but the MCA midwives are like this. They will do everything they can to minimize intervention, will educate you about the drawbacks of epidurals, and still support you if you choose one and recommend them in cases in which they're indicated.

I think people are confusing the issues here: the OP doesn't want to be judged for choosing an epidural during a long, complicated labor. She shouldn't be. You can be as committed as they come to unmedicated labor and still have a labor in which medication is, in fact, indicated. And if it is, you shouldn't be judged for that.

It's not that hard.

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who doesn't understand (appreciate?) the anti-OB mindset. My OB is very pro-natural childbirth and last appointment told me that her job, other than ensuring a healthy mom and baby, is to ensure I don't end up with a C-Section.

With the midwives, they often don't educate their patients about the realities of pregnancy complications. When I listen to midwife patients (I'm in a childbirth class), I often can't believe how innocent they are. I'd rather, personally, have a provider who is realistic to the risks than pretends it's all roses and cupcakes and tubs of flowing water. It's often not. And the GW midwives, who often fail to educate on these issues, benefit from the OB swooping in the basically save the day.

Anyone can attempt to have as natural a childbirth as they seek - I think you're going to find more flexible care with some local, younger OBs than with many of the midwives who are very judgmental.

I went to Meet the Midwives and decided against it because I felt like they didn't care about me. I never felt that way with my OB. Everyone is different, and the only sure bet is to be an educated patient.

We get it, you have never given birth and you're all sanctimonious because of your naivety. Come back when you go through it and have more experience and hopefully a more open mind.

Anonymous wrote:This isn't directed at the OP, but at PPs who are complaining that the GW midwives discourage epidurals.

There are not enough practices out there that will actually encourage women to birth without epidurals. Some women are pressured to get them. Some nurses try to make it harder to avoid them. Some hospitals, because of their policies, make it hard to avoid them because they don't let you move around or otherwise manage the pain in other ways.

If you know you want an epidural from the get-go (thus won't be able to move around, won't need pain management assistance, and will be facing the potential complications that come with it) then why not go with a practice and a hospital that supports that? There are plenty of those. They love their epidurals, and they know how to do them well. There are not enough practices and hospitals that support women who want to avoid epidurals.

And epidurals are not complication-free, so if you know you want one, why wouldn't you want to go to a practice that has lots of experience with them?

Women who want to birth without anesthesia should be in a place that supports that. Women who don't should be in a place that supports that. No judgement either way! But why not be in a practice that supports and has experience supporting what you want to do?

And if you really want to birth unmedicated, you might reach a point where you think you can't do it. Would you rather someone start pushing drugs on you, or would you rather them tell you you can do it?

For me I'm with the GW Midwifery practice because I do not want an epidural. I feel good knowing that the only time one will be offered is if I really need it in order to get the baby out. They otherwise support me in letting my body do its thing, which I personally prefer.

Friend of mine gave birth with an epidural and loved it. Do I feel superior to her in any way? Nope. Not at all. But I mean, if you want a PC computer, don't go shopping at the Apple store.

Yes, this, exactly.

Anonymous wrote:I agree that its too bad more midwives aren't willing to just HELP women get through birth, whichever way they need to get through it. Would I love to have a midwife because of their extensive experience, special attention and knowledge of positioning etc? Of course! But am I willing to COMMIT to a natural childbirth (after experiencing an extremely painful 20 hour labor that was made bearable by an epidural) and then feeling like a failure? Absolutely not.

Why can't a midwife just say, "we are going to try and assure that you have the birth you want and if that means an epi then lovely!" Instead of "kind of making fun of you for begging for it" after the fact, as one PP said. This is why the movement gets a bad rap.

Look, if you're not willing to commit to a natural childbirth, maybe it's best to leave the practice so there's a spot available for someone who is. There are LOTS of great OB practices and epidurals are common for them, so you know your experience will be one they are familiar with and comfortable providing, and you'll know you're allowing someone out there who hands-down wants a natural childbirth the opportunity to have one.

FWIW, I had an extremely painful 30-hour natural labor which resulted in no sleep over 60 hours. I totally understand why some people want epidurals to deal with the pain and exhaustion. But I do feel that midwifery practices should limit their practice to what they do best (unmedicated vaginal labor) and committing to no epidural is part of that. I delivered with an OB because I wasn't sure I could make it without an epidural. Now that I know I can, I'll probably go with a midwife next time around.

This isn't directed at the OP, but at PPs who are complaining that the GW midwives discourage epidurals.

There are not enough practices out there that will actually encourage women to birth without epidurals. Some women are pressured to get them. Some nurses try to make it harder to avoid them. Some hospitals, because of their policies, make it hard to avoid them because they don't let you move around or otherwise manage the pain in other ways.

If you know you want an epidural from the get-go (thus won't be able to move around, won't need pain management assistance, and will be facing the potential complications that come with it) then why not go with a practice and a hospital that supports that? There are plenty of those. They love their epidurals, and they know how to do them well. There are not enough practices and hospitals that support women who want to avoid epidurals.

And epidurals are not complication-free, so if you know you want one, why wouldn't you want to go to a practice that has lots of experience with them?

Women who want to birth without anesthesia should be in a place that supports that. Women who don't should be in a place that supports that. No judgement either way! But why not be in a practice that supports and has experience supporting what you want to do?

And if you really want to birth unmedicated, you might reach a point where you think you can't do it. Would you rather someone start pushing drugs on you, or would you rather them tell you you can do it?

For me I'm with the GW Midwifery practice because I do not want an epidural. I feel good knowing that the only time one will be offered is if I really need it in order to get the baby out. They otherwise support me in letting my body do its thing, which I personally prefer.

Friend of mine gave birth with an epidural and loved it. Do I feel superior to her in any way? Nope. Not at all. But I mean, if you want a PC computer, don't go shopping at the Apple store.

Good grief. This board talks about GW Wisdom the way that 70s pop stars talk about studio 54 in all those "behind the music" specials.

FWIW, I just used my normal OB/Gyn for pregnancy and delivery, never felt pressure or judged in any way with any part of the process- plenty of support (shout out to the great nurses out there that do most of the heavy lifting of support day in and day out without the public recognition). Then again, I didn't have the need to constantly go over the "experience" and wax poetic about our deeply held philosophies of birth. Yes, that's meant to be snarky but there is truth in there too. I said to OB that I want hep lock, ability to move around, no pitocin, no epidural and just to do this. She said "fine".

I agree that its too bad more midwives aren't willing to just HELP women get through birth, whichever way they need to get through it. Would I love to have a midwife because of their extensive experience, special attention and knowledge of positioning etc? Of course! But am I willing to COMMIT to a natural childbirth (after experiencing an extremely painful 20 hour labor that was made bearable by an epidural) and then feeling like a failure? Absolutely not.

Why can't a midwife just say, "we are going to try and assure that you have the birth you want and if that means an epi then lovely!" Instead of "kind of making fun of you for begging for it" after the fact, as one PP said. This is why the movement gets a bad rap.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know, I am the pp who had an epidural with my first but didn't detect judgment from Whitney. I went with Arlington Women's Center for my first because I planned to deliver with Karen King (their midwife). However, I still met with all the OBs, and ended up delivering with the on-call covering doctor whom I had never met! About 3/4 through the pregnancy when I started asking questions about L&D and complications, etc. I was super bummed that I basically got told, don't worry about that; we can talk about that later...I knew I should have switched then, but I didn't. Then when my 36 week u/s showed low fluid, I asked, "what should I do, what does it mean?" And I was told, "nothing, just keep hydrated, and come back at 39 weeks" Guess what? I would have appreciated being told, come back at 39 weeks cause we're gonna induce you if it's still low, and here are the drugs we might use. Cause instead, I got hustled to L&D, given cytotec without being told what it was, and had a nurse/OB combo which bordered on negligent in terms of my care. If cytotec weren't hella effective, I certainly would have ended up with a c section. As it was, I nearly delivered over the toilet with no supervision. It sucked. I certainly hope the GW midwifes standard of care is better than that, although I can't vouch for it yet. None of this isn't to say there aren't great OBs out there. But there are a ton of sub par ones as well.

Who are the sub par OBs in your direct experience?

Masel was the worst. She was the one who told me in the 2nd trimester that it was too early to talk about L&D and the one to brush off my questions after the first low fluid u/s. And Biggs (who had just started) was the one who hustled me to L&D with no explanation. Not to mention at the time, the pregnant u/s technician was tearing up as she told me I had almost no fluid left. (Don't recall her name). That didn't scare me too much as my baby was still quite active, and growing, and I really didn't believe the diagnosis. Crowther, who induced me, was awesome, but she should have told me more about cytotec (she just told me she was giving me something to ripen my cervix, and since at the hospital class they require, they discuss only cervidil, I didn't know enough to ask). Crowther's shift was immediately over, and I was in the care of Jane Piness who checked on me exactly 0 times during 10 hours of labor. A resident gave my my second dose of cytotec, and my nurse, Marissa either had never seen cytotec used, or also mistakenly thought I was on cervidil (maybe Piness did too), because the only thing she said to me (during and after transition!!!) was that I was waiting til the morning to start pitocin. She yelled at me when I told her I couldn't stop pushing (I though I was pooping) and had to run to get Piness, who la de da strolled in and delivered my baby, as well as the news that I certainly did not, in fact, have low fluid. Healthy mom, healthy baby, but shit they could'a run that ship a little tighter.

Anonymous wrote:I don't know, I am the pp who had an epidural with my first but didn't detect judgment from Whitney. I went with Arlington Women's Center for my first because I planned to deliver with Karen King (their midwife). However, I still met with all the OBs, and ended up delivering with the on-call covering doctor whom I had never met! About 3/4 through the pregnancy when I started asking questions about L&D and complications, etc. I was super bummed that I basically got told, don't worry about that; we can talk about that later...I knew I should have switched then, but I didn't. Then when my 36 week u/s showed low fluid, I asked, "what should I do, what does it mean?" And I was told, "nothing, just keep hydrated, and come back at 39 weeks" Guess what? I would have appreciated being told, come back at 39 weeks cause we're gonna induce you if it's still low, and here are the drugs we might use. Cause instead, I got hustled to L&D, given cytotec without being told what it was, and had a nurse/OB combo which bordered on negligent in terms of my care. If cytotec weren't hella effective, I certainly would have ended up with a c section. As it was, I nearly delivered over the toilet with no supervision. It sucked. I certainly hope the GW midwifes standard of care is better than that, although I can't vouch for it yet. None of this isn't to say there aren't great OBs out there. But there are a ton of sub par ones as well.

Who are the sub par OBs in your direct experience?

I had a VERY long, painful labor with the GW midwives. I was never offered pain meds and never asked for them, but after I delivered the MW said she couldn't believe I had done it without drugs and that she would have fully supported me asking for an epidural if I had wanted one (I didn't).

I also have a friend who was encouraged to get an epidural with the GW midwives during a long labor (she did). She is seeing them again for #2 and they have been very encouraging, but keep telling her that her second labor will likely not be anywhere near as long as her first.

However, I have a second friend who begged for an epidural with the GW MWs and got one. The MW she saw postpartum kind of made fun of her for it, but was very understanding about how difficult labor can be and how lucky they are to practice in a hospital so that those types of options are available.

Three different experiences, but I think they all point to the same answer: The GW MWs get it. They practice in a hospital. They are anti-intervention as much as possible, but they understand the place an epidural can have.

Because you already saw the midwives for one pregnancy, you know the practice well and know whether or not you are well-suited to go through them again. If you are hesitating or feeling like you will be judged, I HIGHLY recommend the GW OBs as well (especially Dr. Macri or Dr. Keller). The GW OBs are extremely supportive or natural birth and will help you have exactly the type of experience you are looking for. Plus, then you don't have to answer Whitney's incessant diet questions! :o)

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who doesn't understand (appreciate?) the anti-OB mindset. My OB is very pro-natural childbirth and last appointment told me that her job, other than ensuring a healthy mom and baby, is to ensure I don't end up with a C-Section.

With the midwives, they often don't educate their patients about the realities of pregnancy complications. When I listen to midwife patients (I'm in a childbirth class), I often can't believe how innocent they are. I'd rather, personally, have a provider who is realistic to the risks than pretends it's all roses and cupcakes and tubs of flowing water. It's often not. And the GW midwives, who often fail to educate on these issues, benefit from the OB swooping in the basically save the day.

Anyone can attempt to have as natural a childbirth as they seek - I think you're going to find more flexible care with some local, younger OBs than with many of the midwives who are very judgmental.

I went to Meet the Midwives and decided against it because I felt like they didn't care about me. I never felt that way with my OB. Everyone is different, and the only sure bet is to be an educated patient.

You have a chip on your shoulder the size of Detroit, and I'm not sure why, but since you are not a patient of the GW midwives, how the F do you know they "often fail" to educate on the issues? I don't even believe you went to meet the midwives, since they spend time at that session talking about when childbirth does NOT go through door number 1, i.e. the normal childbirth. You are welcome to your opinion, but I sure do wish you'd keep the inaccurate depictions of a practice you don't belong to, to yourself. I'm a patient of the GW midwives, and I've found that they are clear as a bell on complications (I have some). They are actually more pro-intervention on some things than my first OB was, so I'm not in complete disagreement with folks who say that some OBs can be less intervention happy than some midwives. But a midwife and an OB specialize in different things. Your rancor toward the midwives is really hard for me to understand, but I am sure you have your reasons. It would be good for you to advise on your opinion only, though, and not try to give factual information that you don't possess.

I don't know, I am the pp who had an epidural with my first but didn't detect judgment from Whitney. I went with Arlington Women's Center for my first because I planned to deliver with Karen King (their midwife). However, I still met with all the OBs, and ended up delivering with the on-call covering doctor whom I had never met! About 3/4 through the pregnancy when I started asking questions about L&D and complications, etc. I was super bummed that I basically got told, don't worry about that; we can talk about that later...I knew I should have switched then, but I didn't. Then when my 36 week u/s showed low fluid, I asked, "what should I do, what does it mean?" And I was told, "nothing, just keep hydrated, and come back at 39 weeks" Guess what? I would have appreciated being told, come back at 39 weeks cause we're gonna induce you if it's still low, and here are the drugs we might use. Cause instead, I got hustled to L&D, given cytotec without being told what it was, and had a nurse/OB combo which bordered on negligent in terms of my care. If cytotec weren't hella effective, I certainly would have ended up with a c section. As it was, I nearly delivered over the toilet with no supervision. It sucked. I certainly hope the GW midwifes standard of care is better than that, although I can't vouch for it yet. None of this isn't to say there aren't great OBs out there. But there are a ton of sub par ones as well.

I'm the PP who doesn't understand (appreciate?) the anti-OB mindset. My OB is very pro-natural childbirth and last appointment told me that her job, other than ensuring a healthy mom and baby, is to ensure I don't end up with a C-Section.

With the midwives, they often don't educate their patients about the realities of pregnancy complications. When I listen to midwife patients (I'm in a childbirth class), I often can't believe how innocent they are. I'd rather, personally, have a provider who is realistic to the risks than pretends it's all roses and cupcakes and tubs of flowing water. It's often not. And the GW midwives, who often fail to educate on these issues, benefit from the OB swooping in the basically save the day.

Anyone can attempt to have as natural a childbirth as they seek - I think you're going to find more flexible care with some local, younger OBs than with many of the midwives who are very judgmental.

I went to Meet the Midwives and decided against it because I felt like they didn't care about me. I never felt that way with my OB. Everyone is different, and the only sure bet is to be an educated patient.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are also OBs that support natural birth and provide good care. I'll never understand the anti-OB view of some people. Especially wisdom patients, who benefit often from the skills of OBs if there are issues the midwives can't handle at delivery.
The only thing you can control is being your own advocate. It seems certain midwives care a whole mess about their statistics and judge/shame in order to ensure their stats are good.
Shrug.

I had an unmedicated labor with an OB, so know that I am coming from a place of having found a good OB and agreeing that you can have a positive experience with an OB in a hospital.

That said, OBs are trained to be surgeons, and many times they think of labor complications in that mindset. Some OBs have a 70% c-section rate! I personally went with my OB because she had only a 12% c-section rate, but with some practices, you don't know who will be delivering you or if they support unmedicated vaginal delivery except in emergent situations.

Wow, who is that? I didn't think those existed!

Anonymous wrote:There are also OBs that support natural birth and provide good care. I'll never understand the anti-OB view of some people. Especially wisdom patients, who benefit often from the skills of OBs if there are issues the midwives can't handle at delivery.
The only thing you can control is being your own advocate. It seems certain midwives care a whole mess about their statistics and judge/shame in order to ensure their stats are good.
Shrug.

I had an unmedicated labor with an OB, so know that I am coming from a place of having found a good OB and agreeing that you can have a positive experience with an OB in a hospital.

That said, OBs are trained to be surgeons, and many times they think of labor complications in that mindset. Some OBs have a 70% c-section rate! I personally went with my OB because she had only a 12% c-section rate, but with some practices, you don't know who will be delivering you or if they support unmedicated vaginal delivery except in emergent situations.