No example you provided amounts to abuse.

The racism is the biggest concern.

Your SIL and BIL were likely stressed out and wanting to make a good impression when having visitors and wanting their kids to "act right". Their anxiety bled into all their interactions with their kids and it sounds like they were more stern then they needed to be.

As far as your kid crying from the stair incident, meh, not everyone will speak to her in a lovely dovey tone. Your BIL appears to acknowledge that he over reacted.

Anonymous wrote:

You know, I'd suggest you actually stand up for kids in situations like this. It is *not* okay for another adult to yell at your child multiple times and make them cry. What sort of message does it send to your kids that their parents won't actually stand up for them when they are getting yelled at for things that are clearly meant to send a message to some other kid? I don't see how you can stand your children being made an example of.

OP here. This is very hurtful to me because I would be so sad if my DDs came away from those experiences thinking that we didn't stand up for them. DH and I did what we thought was best. We also told my DDs that BIL and SIL should not have yelled at them, and that he was wrong to do so. I guess instead of saying "let us handle it next time," we could have said "don't yell at our kids!" but the truth is that i was a little afraid to, i guess. i didn't want to make an already uncomfortable situation even more uncomfortable for all of us. so instead we gently told BIL to let us handle it, and then told DD that she does need to respect their family's riles, but even so that he was wrong to yell at her.

OP here again. 17:32, you're right on about how my sister and her DH perceive themselves at the top of the class system and almost everyone else is somewhere below. Totally right on.

The idea of cutting all ties with them breaks my heart because I love my nephews and niece. Also, if I were to cut all ties, I would have to provide my sister with an explanation...and she would be so hurt and so angry with me that she would never let it go. She is the type of person who will never let it go if you seriously wrong her or hurt her. For example, her FIL hurt her badly once, and now he is forbidden to see her sons. He has never met his 1YO grandson and hasn't seen the other son in 2 or 3 years). Her FIL was a bad parent to her DH, and I agree that he has done some hurtful things to my sister, but I do believe that he is a very loving grandfather, and deserves to be a part of the kids' lives. The man has called his son and begged to be able to see his grandchildren). Also, if I cut all ties and told my sister the reasons why, she'd probably poison my nephews and niece against me and my family. This is so hard.

It is really so sad that your sis and bil are so racist and toxic. But I think you need some firmer boundaries and this can only occur, as you've figured out and others have suggested, on neutral ground. Staying at a hotel and meeting at a neutral place is only fair. Your family has every bit as much right as hers to feel comfortable and, as others have said, the race and class bubble thing is an issue. If she balks you can make your concerns known in a tactful way, but stand your ground. She and her dh do not get to dictate the dynamic of everything and everyone around them. We had to do this with some inlaws who are religious bigots (we are a mixed faith family). It was rough at first, but now they know it's a line they don't cross with us and everyone involved has made their boundaries clear. Now, family events are less stressful because we all know where everyone stands, what they will and won't likely attend, and expectations are managed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This must be very hard to witness. What do you say when your BIL makes your DD cry?

OP here again. While my DH was holding and comforting our DD while she cried, BIL started apologizing ("sorry, but i am going to be the bad guy on this one, because we don't want our DSs thinking that it's okay for them to climb the stairs, etc.") and my DH said something like 'I understand, I understand, but next time I'll handle it, I'll get her off the stairs, etc."). I understand that they have this rule for their kids, and that our kids have to abide by it when we're visiting, but I don't want THEM handling it -- I want them to let US handle it. We can't always be the first to notice when our kid(s) might be breaking one of the rules because when we visit, there are 5 kids running around, and a lot of the time we (DH and I) try to get some quality time with our nephews and my sister and her DH try to do the same with our DDs.

You know, I'd suggest you actually stand up for kids in situations like this. It is *not* okay for another adult to yell at your child multiple times and make them cry. What sort of message does it send to your kids that their parents won't actually stand up for them when they are getting yelled at for things that are clearly meant to send a message to some other kid? I don't see how you can stand your children being made an example of.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have they ever come to visit you overnight, and how does that go?

OP here. They have come to visit, but very rarely. We live in a townhouse that is much smaller (and much more modest) than theirs, so we don't have a ton of space. Also, they really prefer for us to come to them (they have created this little luxury bubble that they don't like to leave). The times that they've visited, it's been okay..same kinds of stuff, but probably a little better than when we're there. Maybe we should invite them more. We usually only go to them for holidays, b-day parties, etc.

Inviting them more to your house won't make a difference. The real problem is how the kids are treated when you aren't around. Unfortunately, it definitely sounds like your poor neices and nephews are being emotionally abused.

I understand your need to want to act as a "buffer" for your neices and nephews. You sound like a good Auntie.

Your nephew's response of wanting to stay with you and grandma and for the parents to go back to their vacation and for his dad to go away so that you two could continue playing upstairs, is just heartbreaking and very revealing...

I'm 16:45.

My guess is that SIL and BIL care enormously about the class system, and how others should perceive them to be at the very top of it. Their children must therefore do them credit.

Why not tap into that snobbery by explaining that good behavior and success are better achieved from a place of loving self-confidence than fear of retribution?
And that successful parenting can be extremely structured and disciplined but does not have to be harsh? Consistency is key, not severity.

I would buy them a book about that kind of parenting - strict, but loving. Something along the lines of raising little gentlemen and little ladies. They'll take it better from someone else, since they know this is not how you raise your own children.

I would also continue to visit occasionally, and use this to pursue a continuous, non-confrontational dialogue about parenting, and also to model good parenting behavior.

Of course, they are never going to acknowledge that you raise good points! You are lower down in the class system, you see
It's for the sake of your niece and nephews.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You suck, OP. This is such a bullshit post. You know what the situation is, so stop exposing your children to racism and abuse.

You think severing ties with them is the right thing to do? What about the nephews and niece?

I'm the "4 year olds notice racism" poster, not the PP above, and Yes, I think severing ties is the right thing to do. The OP's first responsibility is to her children, and at some point she's going to have to give them a clear message. Cutting off contact with the nephews and niece won't be easier as they get older. She can always still send gifts, and cards and things or visit alone, and reach out to them when they graduate if they want to move away from this hateful lifestyle.

Anonymous wrote:You suck, OP. This is such a bullshit post. You know what the situation is, so stop exposing your children to racism and abuse.

You think severing ties with them is the right thing to do? What about the nephews and niece?

OP, this is a tough situation. I do wonder whether issues like the stairs are more about preventing possible harm to your kids (though agree that yelling isn't the way to get that message across). That said, I have a couple of really nasty relatives - not racists but just plain malicious and nasty people. After trying to appease them, talk with them about my concerns and why their behavior was hurtful, and after enduring countless attacks and incidents of nastiness, I made the decision that it was best not to expose myself and my family to them any longer. Very tough decision and unfortunately one that has caused continued pain because it divides my family. But I just could not in good concious expose my kids, my husband, and myself to their behavior.

Also, as you've mentioned yourself, I miss out on relationships with their children who are quite dear. There's no easy way. My thought is to talk plainly to your sister about the way she speaks (racists comments, yelling at your kids). I would also see if maybe staying in a hotel instead of their house makes more sense for you and eases the tension. Lastly, if the behavior continues, you may want to consider visiting them alone - sans DH and kids.

You suck, OP. This is such a bullshit post. You know what the situation is, so stop exposing your children to racism and abuse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your oldest is 4? That's plenty old enough to understand, and damage has undoubtedly already been done.

OP here again. I reallt don't think DD has picked up on anything. As I said, my sister has the "decency" to at least refrain from any sort of racist talk while my kids are around (it usually becomes a topic of conversation after they've gone to bed). So there really isn't anything that my DD could have been exposed to or damaged by (yet) except one time when Little Bill came on the tv and my nephew pointed to it and went to my sister to let her know it was on, because he knows he's not allowed to watch it. I am pretty sure my DD (who was 3 at the time, and has never seen Little Bill, only because we don't watch much TV) didn't notice or understand the meaning of what DS did. I do think, however, that my sister is openly racist with her step-daughter and DSs for the examples I mentioned earlier.

Kids pick up on subtle things. They pick up on the expression on someone's face when they are served by someone in a restaurant, or they way they act towards the person coming towards them on the sidewalk. They pick up on patterns such as having to turn off TV for shows where the people are brown and not otherwise. They pick up on messages when none of the books on the bookshelf have black characters.

If your 4 year old hasn't picked up on this you're lucky, but it will happen soon.

Anonymous wrote:

Your oldest is 4? That's plenty old enough to understand, and damage has undoubtedly already been done.

OP here again. I reallt don't think DD has picked up on anything. As I said, my sister has the "decency" to at least refrain from any sort of racist talk while my kids are around (it usually becomes a topic of conversation after they've gone to bed). So there really isn't anything that my DD could have been exposed to or damaged by (yet) except one time when Little Bill came on the tv and my nephew pointed to it and went to my sister to let her know it was on, because he knows he's not allowed to watch it. I am pretty sure my DD (who was 3 at the time, and has never seen Little Bill, only because we don't watch much TV) didn't notice or understand the meaning of what DS did. I do think, however, that my sister is openly racist with her step-daughter and DSs for the examples I mentioned earlier.

Anonymous wrote:Have they ever come to visit you overnight, and how does that go?

OP here. They have come to visit, but very rarely. We live in a townhouse that is much smaller (and much more modest) than theirs, so we don't have a ton of space. Also, they really prefer for us to come to them (they have created this little luxury bubble that they don't like to leave). The times that they've visited, it's been okay..same kinds of stuff, but probably a little better than when we're there. Maybe we should invite them more. We usually only go to them for holidays, b-day parties, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd have much bigger concerns about my child being exposed to racism than I would about them being scolded for going upstairs.

OP here again. I completely agree, and this will definitely be an issue that we will face once my DDs get old enough to understand. Also, my sister keeps her racism under wraps in front of my kids. So that hasn't been an issue for my kids, yet. But it's definitely an issue for my niece, and probably already for my nephews. Back when she was 6 or 7, my niece was afraid to go into a pool because there was a black person in it. My nephews know what programs they aren't allowed to watch.

Your oldest is 4? That's plenty old enough to understand, and damage has undoubtedly already been done.