Anonymous
05/24/2013 19:59
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Yes. I believe Jesus existed. I believe Jesus is the son of God. He taught everything in the New Testament, without him there would be no New Testament. I don't WANT to talk to Jesus because I believe religion is a personal thing. This may be the way I was brought up. Our church was not all get up and Praise Jesus.
My relationship with God is personal and I don't feel I need to discuss it with anybody or preach it to anybody. It[u] is not depressing to me, it is very comfortable.
But if somebody would like to practice differently than me I respect that, if somebody wants to practice a different religion than me or no religion at all that is fine with me to. I completely respect that and believe that is their relationship with God and if they are happy/healthy then they are doing it right.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yes. I would rather sleep in on Sunday and many times I do. I don't think I am going to hell for it. Well, yes Jesus is a part of the Catholic teaching. I mentioned Christmas and Easter which revolve around Jesus. I am a very liberal Catholic, have you never met a Catholic person that does not talk about Jesus all the time?
So you disregard the great commission?
Anonymous
05/24/2013 19:56
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:takoma wrote:The Pope has declared (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/05/23/pope-francis-atheists/2355935/) that a good person is redeemed by the blood of Christ even if that person is an atheist. I guess that I'll see you all in heaven, if I'm wrong and such a place really exists.
The point is that atheists aren't evil people and can meet Christians in the middle if they are doing good deeds.
Christ died for everyone but that doesn't mean an atheist is going to be going to heaven if they don't believe in Jesus as their savior.
I don't give a rat's ass either way but that's the message through all the new fluff.
You may need to go back and read the Pope's message, because that's exactly what he said. Whether atheists "believe" or not, they're going to heaven. Christ redeemed us all. Your belief in Christ is irrelevant. Go Pope!
Christi's redemption is for all; that has never been in question. However, in order to partake of that redemption, you have to accept Him as saviour. It's like me saying I have sweets for everyone but only those who actually take a sweet actually get a sweet.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 19:00
Subject: Re:Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
@18:19
Not sure where you get "the mention of Jesus is offensive". I am just demure about my beliefs. I don't think anybody should believe the way I do and I don't desire to ape the way other believe. I am extremely secure in my beliefs and how i worship. I also think others feel uncomfortable when it is different from their way or ways they have seen before. So I understand that you think it is weird and that is fine with me.
Not sure where you get "the mention of Jesus is offensive". I am just demure about my beliefs. I don't think anybody should believe the way I do and I don't desire to ape the way other believe. I am extremely secure in my beliefs and how i worship. I also think others feel uncomfortable when it is different from their way or ways they have seen before. So I understand that you think it is weird and that is fine with me.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 18:19
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Yes. I believe Jesus existed. I believe Jesus is the son of God. He taught everything in the New Testament, without him there would be no New Testament. I don't WANT to talk to Jesus because I believe religion is a personal thing. This may be the way I was brought up. Our church was not all get up and Praise Jesus.
My relationship with God is personal and I don't feel I need to discuss it with anybody or preach it to anybody. It is not depressing to me, it is very comfortable.
But if somebody would like to practice differently than me I respect that, if somebody wants to practice a different religion than me or no religion at all that is fine with me to. I completely respect that and believe that is their relationship with God and if they are happy/healthy then they are doing it right.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yes. I would rather sleep in on Sunday and many times I do. I don't think I am going to hell for it. Well, yes Jesus is a part of the Catholic teaching. I mentioned Christmas and Easter which revolve around Jesus. I am a very liberal Catholic, have you never met a Catholic person that does not talk about Jesus all the time?
PP I am even more perplexed now. Is Jesus "part of the Catholic teaching" or is Jesus THE Catholic teaching? Do you actually believe that Jesus is the son of God, pp? I am not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that's not just a big part of being Catholic, that IS being Catholic or any type of Christian. I think when talking about your Catholicism talking about Jesus is totally appropriate. I mean, according to your religion, Jesus is God and taught all kinds of awesome things and was tortured and died out of love for you. Shouldn't you WANT to talk about Jesus? To me, it doesn't make sense to practice Catholicism and go to church and go through all the motions if you don't actually feel strongly about Jesus. That just seems so... pointless, depressing even.
PP, I don't mean to be insulting, but you sound ambivalent at best. Your church wasn't all "get up and praise Jesus?" I have actually never been to a church where most of the service wasn't about praising Jesus, and I've been to Catholic services. It seems like you almost feel like mere mention of Jesus is actually offensive or intrusive or something, and I don't think it is, even to atheists. Jesus was open, inclusive, peaceful, and loving, unlike many (probably even most) of his followers. This is a forum where people discuss their feelings about their bodily odors and more, so I don't think that mere mention of Jesus would have crossed some boundary or been over-sharing. You listed like 50 reasons you like to go to church and actually believing in Jesus wasn't one of them. I don't claim to know your innermost thoughts or beliefs anything like that, but that was weird.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 18:18
Subject: Re:Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Pope Francis, in his sermon said:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Anonymous
05/24/2013 18:10
Subject: Re:Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:A lot of people are reading things into the Pope's message that are not not there. At no time did he suggest - much less teach - that avowed atheists are saved. Instead, what he actually said is so obviously true and open to a perfectly fair and benign reading:
1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).
2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).
3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially - we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ. We are free to reject Christ and there is a consequence for that rejection no matter who are what we have done. With that said, no one can say who is or isn't going to heaven because no one knows what is in a person's heart at the time of death--do they accept or reject the grace of given to them through Jesus.
The Pope's message is not inconsistent with Church teaching. As he has done throughout his life, he is reaching out to other's and building bridges of peace.
Wow, PP, you said that way better than I did!
Anonymous
05/24/2013 18:09
Subject: Re:Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
OP, I think you, and everyone else on this thread, and almost everyone who reads the news, misunderstood what the Pope said:
Jesus suffered and died for every human being who has ever lived. His redemption is offered to all. The vast majority of human being who have ever lived never heard the name "Jesus." But every human can know Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, one of the three Persons in one God, our Creator, because He has written His word on our hearts: do good and reject evil.
So of course atheists, and Moses, and Socrates, and Native Americans, and Anne Frank, and Gandhi, could possibly go to heaven, because Christ redeemed them. But every human being has a choice to accept redemption, or not: my will, not thine, or thy will, be mine.
One aspect of aligning our will with His involves doing His will on earth--doing good, not evil. Every person has the capacity to choose good, over evil.
So for the hypothetical, “But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’” Pope Francis gave the emphatic reply: “But do good: we will meet one another there.”
(Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lauren-enk/2013/05/23/media-claims-pope-gave-atheists-pass-heaven#ixzz2UFaOAb6o)
Because IF a person is doing good, s/he is, in fact, doing God's will, even if s/he refuses to acknowledge the Source of all Good, the source of Justice and Truth. It is possible to stumble across Truth, without realizing it.
Jesus suffered and died for every human being who has ever lived. His redemption is offered to all. The vast majority of human being who have ever lived never heard the name "Jesus." But every human can know Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, one of the three Persons in one God, our Creator, because He has written His word on our hearts: do good and reject evil.
So of course atheists, and Moses, and Socrates, and Native Americans, and Anne Frank, and Gandhi, could possibly go to heaven, because Christ redeemed them. But every human being has a choice to accept redemption, or not: my will, not thine, or thy will, be mine.
One aspect of aligning our will with His involves doing His will on earth--doing good, not evil. Every person has the capacity to choose good, over evil.
So for the hypothetical, “But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’” Pope Francis gave the emphatic reply: “But do good: we will meet one another there.”
(Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lauren-enk/2013/05/23/media-claims-pope-gave-atheists-pass-heaven#ixzz2UFaOAb6o)
Because IF a person is doing good, s/he is, in fact, doing God's will, even if s/he refuses to acknowledge the Source of all Good, the source of Justice and Truth. It is possible to stumble across Truth, without realizing it.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 18:00
Subject: Re:Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
A lot of people are reading things into the Pope's message that are not not there. At no time did he suggest - much less teach - that avowed atheists are saved. Instead, what he actually said is so obviously true and open to a perfectly fair and benign reading:
1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).
2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).
3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially - we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ. We are free to reject Christ and there is a consequence for that rejection no matter who are what we have done. With that said, no one can say who is or isn't going to heaven because no one knows what is in a person's heart at the time of death--do they accept or reject the grace of given to them through Jesus.
The Pope's message is not inconsistent with Church teaching. As he has done throughout his life, he is reaching out to other's and building bridges of peace.
1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).
2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).
3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially - we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ. We are free to reject Christ and there is a consequence for that rejection no matter who are what we have done. With that said, no one can say who is or isn't going to heaven because no one knows what is in a person's heart at the time of death--do they accept or reject the grace of given to them through Jesus.
The Pope's message is not inconsistent with Church teaching. As he has done throughout his life, he is reaching out to other's and building bridges of peace.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 17:43
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Yes. I believe Jesus existed. I believe Jesus is the son of God. He taught everything in the New Testament, without him there would be no New Testament. I don't WANT to talk to Jesus because I believe religion is a personal thing. This may be the way I was brought up. Our church was not all get up and Praise Jesus.
My relationship with God is personal and I don't feel I need to discuss it with anybody or preach it to anybody. It is not depressing to me, it is very comfortable.
But if somebody would like to practice differently than me I respect that, if somebody wants to practice a different religion than me or no religion at all that is fine with me to. I completely respect that and believe that is their relationship with God and if they are happy/healthy then they are doing it right.
My relationship with God is personal and I don't feel I need to discuss it with anybody or preach it to anybody. It is not depressing to me, it is very comfortable.
But if somebody would like to practice differently than me I respect that, if somebody wants to practice a different religion than me or no religion at all that is fine with me to. I completely respect that and believe that is their relationship with God and if they are happy/healthy then they are doing it right.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yes. I would rather sleep in on Sunday and many times I do. I don't think I am going to hell for it. Well, yes Jesus is a part of the Catholic teaching. I mentioned Christmas and Easter which revolve around Jesus. I am a very liberal Catholic, have you never met a Catholic person that does not talk about Jesus all the time?
PP I am even more perplexed now. Is Jesus "part of the Catholic teaching" or is Jesus THE Catholic teaching? Do you actually believe that Jesus is the son of God, pp? I am not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that's not just a big part of being Catholic, that IS being Catholic or any type of Christian. I think when talking about your Catholicism talking about Jesus is totally appropriate. I mean, according to your religion, Jesus is God and taught all kinds of awesome things and was tortured and died out of love for you. Shouldn't you WANT to talk about Jesus? To me, it doesn't make sense to practice Catholicism and go to church and go through all the motions if you don't actually feel strongly about Jesus. That just seems so... pointless, depressing even.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 17:22
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
takoma wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll take a stab at this too. Full disclosure, I am a Catholic and pretty conservative religiously and otherwise.
The purpose in believing in a religion is because of truth (I will wait for the laughter to stop, but I am serious). ...
Thank you for that. I am amazed that you are apparently the only "believer" who actually believes. It looks like the rest are atheists like me whose only difference from me is that they think they have to keep up the pretense that God exists because otherwise their fellow citizens (and they themselves?) will degenerate into savagery.
Giving morality as a reason for belief is, IMHO, accepting the basic tenet of my atheistic view of the world -- that good behavior is the basis of civilization and religion is a useful tool to foster such behavior.
If that sounds dismissive, let me add that I am not so confident of my own beliefs that I dismiss the truly held beliefs of others, and in some ways I am jealous of the comfort they receive from their faith. For me, a facet of the golden rule is: accept your own fallibility as you would hope those with different beliefs will accept theirs.
But that's just it, a true believer has no doubts. This is what makes religious wars for the rightness and glory of one's creator over the enemy's false gods possible.
takoma
05/24/2013 17:15
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:I'll take a stab at this too. Full disclosure, I am a Catholic and pretty conservative religiously and otherwise.
The purpose in believing in a religion is because of truth (I will wait for the laughter to stop, but I am serious). ...
Thank you for that. I am amazed that you are apparently the only "believer" who actually believes. It looks like the rest are atheists like me whose only difference from me is that they think they have to keep up the pretense that God exists because otherwise their fellow citizens (and they themselves?) will degenerate into savagery.
Giving morality as a reason for belief is, IMHO, accepting the basic tenet of my atheistic view of the world -- that good behavior is the basis of civilization and religion is a useful tool to foster such behavior.
If that sounds dismissive, let me add that I am not so confident of my own beliefs that I dismiss the truly held beliefs of others, and in some ways I am jealous of the comfort they receive from their faith. For me, a facet of the golden rule is: accept your own fallibility as you would hope those with different beliefs will accept theirs.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 17:07
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Yes. I would rather sleep in on Sunday and many times I do. I don't think I am going to hell for it. Well, yes Jesus is a part of the Catholic teaching. I mentioned Christmas and Easter which revolve around Jesus. I am a very liberal Catholic, have you never met a Catholic person that does not talk about Jesus all the time?
PP I am even more perplexed now. Is Jesus "part of the Catholic teaching" or is Jesus THE Catholic teaching? Do you actually believe that Jesus is the son of God, pp? I am not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that's not just a big part of being Catholic, that IS being Catholic or any type of Christian. I think when talking about your Catholicism talking about Jesus is totally appropriate. I mean, according to your religion, Jesus is God and taught all kinds of awesome things and was tortured and died out of love for you. Shouldn't you WANT to talk about Jesus? To me, it doesn't make sense to practice Catholicism and go to church and go through all the motions if you don't actually feel strongly about Jesus. That just seems so... pointless, depressing even.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 16:50
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Yes. I would rather sleep in on Sunday and many times I do. I don't think I am going to hell for it. Well, yes Jesus is a part of the Catholic teaching. I mentioned Christmas and Easter which revolve around Jesus. I am a very liberal Catholic, have you never met a Catholic person that does not talk about Jesus all the time?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honest question - so what's the purpose of believing in religion then, if it's plainly evident that people can be good and decent without it?
I'll bite.
We are Catholic because it is part of family tradition and throwing all that away did not really feel right when I started my family. I could have created a whole bunch of new traditions for my family but I don't believe in recreating the wheel so I will stick with Christmas and Easter.
Also, religion for me is a community. This is a big world out there and I think community is nice. This is not the only community we are a part of but it is one of them. We are part of a neighborhood, we are part of sports teams, we are part of a group that does volunteer work, etc.
I think every religion basically has the same "stuff"... traditions, worship, sacrifice, morals, etc. I knew Catholicism best so I stuck with it.
I also think that if you look at the Bible from a pure liturature standpoint it is very interesting, just like Greek Mythology. I like that my kids know Bible stories.
All religions are run by humans and are imperfect so I don't think the Catholic religion is perfect but if I choose a different one it would not be perfect either.
I don't need religion to be good.
I do find religion fasinating I love going to other religious ceremonies and finding the similarities between religions. I really like Budhist teachings, they are much different than the other teachings but I like their approach. For example, Budhist (and I am not an expert) say everybody suffers so learning to deal with that is good because it is going to happen eventually. I don't know why I take comfort in that but I do. It make hard times easier like, okay this is my time to suffer, it's part of life.
I find your response interesting, pp, because you don't mention Jesus at all. Is he just not part of Catholicism to you? I find this interesting because I find I don't think I could stick with any religion if I didn't actually believe in it. Church and tradition are nice, but I don't feel they're THAT great. Sleeping in on Sunday would be a lot more appealing if I didn't believe in it...
Anonymous
05/24/2013 16:40
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Honest question - so what's the purpose of believing in religion then, if it's plainly evident that people can be good and decent without it?
It's to keep all the believers who cannot be inherently good and decent without it to try to be good and decent. The world would be more chaotic if the 95% believers weren't kept in check somehow.
Anonymous
05/24/2013 16:37
Subject: Pope Francis recognizes good atheists.
Anonymous wrote:Inclusive and arrogant at the same time. Ironic.
+1. Typical for the religious. Remember when the Mormon leader received a message that admitting blacks to the church was okay? And some of them are okay with homosexuals.