Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you have a cleaning lady? If you do, you are middle or upper class.

If you have a cleaning lady, you are likely well beyond middle class. You are upper middle to upper class.

What if I just fired my cleaning lady? Am I back to middle class?

Yes. And she goes to non-working class. Not a good idea.

I think we need another category, something between middles class and rich. Upper middle class does not cut it because everyone is fighting over what makes up the "middle".

Our HHI is $300K+, two working parents. We have a small amount of debt in addition to our mortgage but all student debt is paid off and we are on track to eliminate all non-mortgage debt within the year. We live in a small, not updated, close in house in DC with a good school district. We expect to finally be able to update our house in the next year or so once (1) non-mortgage debt is gone, and (2) our youngest starts K and there is no more private preschool/daycare bill. We can afford to eat mostly organic, take occasional vacations, drive decent cars that we keep for about 10 years, and we will ensure that our children have excellent educational options and can attend the best college for them that they get into. We are saving for retirement. We usually drive over flying when traveling because of cost but we will stay in nice hotels because we like them. We recognize we are very well off, but not rich in the common understanding of that word as portrayed in movies and on TV. We do not make financial decisions without thinking them through. We get upset when there is a problem with the a/c or roof or something else because such expenses are a big deal to us.

So, what is the name for this category that does not (1) insult people that are struggling financially because it understates how well off a HH is as compared to the country and the world or (2) overstate how well off a HH is in its day to day experience of life and relative to the truly wealthy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.

No, you're not. Middle Class is based on HHI -- not on the choices you made/make (i.e. to have 2 kids, to buy the house you bought, to take on the debt you took on).

In fact, many middle class families in the area don't even own a house because they couldn't afford to do so.

You make more than double the median salary for the region. You don't think people making $80k have expenses (childcare, mortgage, student loans)?

Wrong. Class is based on much more than income. It is also based on your level of education, your parents' level of education, your life style choices, your manners and your taste. Income is only part of socio-economic class.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-21/local/35451899_1_household-income-income-data-income-inequality

In the District, the top 1 percent of households bring in at least $617,000; in Montgomery County, more than $606,000; and in Fairfax County, $532,000, according to an analysis of census statistics by The Washington Post and Sentier Research, a firm that specializes in income data.

I make $200k have two DCs under 4 (relevant because child care costs directly affect disposable income available) and think we fall in upper middle income for the area.

Then I guess the question is - did OP mean middle class I the DC metro area or for the entire US. I don't dispute my income and $500k house would put me as high income in 95% of the US, but not here. Here I'm mid to upper middle class.

HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.

HHI of $200K in the DC metro area puts you in the top 13% of incomes.

cite: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-21/local/35451899_1_household-income-income-data-income-inequality

In the VA Suburbs, DC , and MD suburbs other than PG county, a HHI of $250K puts you in the top 5% of local incomes.
cite: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/census-high-income/

6 of the 10 highest HHI counties in the country are in the DC area, and the highest median HHI for those is still less than $120K (in Loudon county). cite: http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2013/04/25/americas-richest-counties/)

So no, people making $200K or $230K are not middle class, even in DC. I get that you're not rich-we make $240K ourselves and I don't feel rich, but I do know that I am very, very fortunate and have more than many, many people. So, I know that to many people, I probably look rich. I think it just depends on definitions of that word.

Several years ago, the NY Times created an interactive graphic that tells you what class you are based on occupation, income, wealth, and education. It defines class by quintiles--lower, lower middle, middle, upper middle, and top 5th. It's a few years old, so the $ amounts are likely a little off, but it's still interesting as a way to answer OP's original question of "How do I know if I am middle class?": http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you have a cleaning lady? If you do, you are middle or upper class.

If you have a cleaning lady, you are likely well beyond middle class. You are upper middle to upper class.

What if I just fired my cleaning lady? Am I back to middle class?

Anonymous wrote:Do you have a cleaning lady? If you do, you are middle or upper class.

If you have a cleaning lady, you are likely well beyond middle class. You are upper middle to upper class.

Anonymous wrote:HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.

No, you're not. Middle Class is based on HHI -- not on the choices you made/make (i.e. to have 2 kids, to buy the house you bought, to take on the debt you took on).

In fact, many middle class families in the area don't even own a house because they couldn't afford to do so.

You make more than double the median salary for the region. You don't think people making $80k have expenses (childcare, mortgage, student loans)?

Do you have a cleaning lady? If you do, you are middle or upper class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:above 100k below 450k

Absolutely not. In the DC area, I'd say middle class would be maybe 40-50K

Really? I agree pretty much agree with PP except I'd drop the low end to $80k - $275k. Of course this entire thread is subjective and how one defines middle income. I make $200k have two DCs under 4 (relevant because child care costs directly affect disposable income available) and think we fall in upper middle income for the area.

At 200k, you make more than over 95% of people in the United States. That is not even close to "middle class."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Then I guess the question is - did OP mean middle class I the DC metro area or for the entire US. I don't dispute my income and $500k house would put me as high income in 95% of the US, but not here. Here I'm mid to upper middle class. And, in manhattan I'd be flirting with the lower end of middle class. It's all dependent on geography and how wide the net is cast.

I don't think you realize what the average salary is even here in the D.C. region. Even here, at $200k, you are not middle class, most definitely upper middle class, possibly beyond. I don't think you realize how many families of 4 in this region there are who make less than $100k.

This is the problem I have with threads on this site about "middle class." You are actually lucky that you live in your $500k house. There are plenty of people who live in other areas of the DC metro region (or work here and commute far distances) because they don't make enough to live "close in" in a good area.

In fact, I think the median HHI in the DC metro region is around $80k or $90k (haven't checked recently).

So, even when just considering this area alone, you are well above middle class. I think the problem is that people have a very skewed impression of what being upper class feels like. What they don't realize is that they have a much higher quality of life, more choices (i.e. in some families, one parent can't afford to work if they have more than one kid, so they move further out to a cheaper location, and one parent takes on a crappy commute).

There are plenty of people who commute to D.C. from the Eastern Shore, from West Virginia, from Western Maryland, et cetera, because they can't afford to live here but need work and the work they do simply does not pay even close to what you make.

Everyone in the usa is middle class except Killem Gates, Old Country Buffet, and Old Man Frump.

^^ correction, that should have been 2010, not 2012

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:above 100k below 450k

Absolutely not. In the DC area, I'd say middle class would be maybe 40-50K

Really? I agree pretty much agree with PP except I'd drop the low end to $80k - $275k. Of course this entire thread is subjective and how one defines middle income. I make $200k have two DCs under 4 (relevant because child care costs directly affect disposable income available) and think we fall in upper middle income for the area.

The average income for the DC area in 2012 was $84,523. You more than double that. You are not middle class in the DC area.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203752604576641683529031952.html

HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.