Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being nice makes me feel good.

Being mean makes me feel bad.

I know the difference between good and evil like I know the difference between chocolate and vanilla. I don't need the threat of hell to make me be good. Hell is being bad and then hating yourself for it.

"Harm none, and do what you will".

Do you agree that for there to be good and evil, there has to be a creator of it? Otherwise, the terms wouldn't exist and folks could do whatever they want.

No, as we explained, humans evolved as social creatures. As such, concepts such as good and evil proved to be evolutionarily helpful. They require no creator.

Yes, but what is the *origin* of good and evil? What/who decided what is good and what is evil?

It would seem to me that atheists are a bit contradictory in their non-belief.

Most live a moral life, yet reject the idea that the concept of morality is a spiritual/religious one. In order for there to be good, there has to be a creator of good. Who *originally* dictated what is good and what is bad? Where did the concept come from?

We are not born with the ability to determine good from evil, right from wrong. That is why so many children are vulnerable to the ill intentions of dangerous people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being nice makes me feel good.

Being mean makes me feel bad.

I know the difference between good and evil like I know the difference between chocolate and vanilla. I don't need the threat of hell to make me be good. Hell is being bad and then hating yourself for it.

"Harm none, and do what you will".

Do you agree that for there to be good and evil, there has to be a creator of it? Otherwise, the terms wouldn't exist and folks could do whatever they want.

No I don't. I think that it's about pain. We know to move away from a flame because it hurts. This is a survival mechanism.

We are intelligent enough to know that if the flame hurts us, it hurts others. Intelligence is also a survival mechanism, and encouraged by natural selection.

Empathy allows us to cooperate in social groups. We don't want to see others hurt by the flame. This is also encouraged by evolution.

Now, whether there's some higher power that planned for us to understand pain, and be intelligent, and have empathy, is a question I will not know the answer to in this life at any rate. Whether there is a life beyond or a deeper mystery here.... I'd like to hope that there is. I will be pleasantly surprised if there is. But I don't have any reason to believe it at this point.

What I do believe at this moment is that human intelligence and empathy allow us to understand and wish to minimize pain for others. That is the source of morality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being nice makes me feel good.

Being mean makes me feel bad.

I know the difference between good and evil like I know the difference between chocolate and vanilla. I don't need the threat of hell to make me be good. Hell is being bad and then hating yourself for it.

"Harm none, and do what you will".

Do you agree that for there to be good and evil, there has to be a creator of it? Otherwise, the terms wouldn't exist and folks could do whatever they want.

No, as we explained, humans evolved as social creatures. As such, concepts such as good and evil proved to be evolutionarily helpful. They require no creator.

Anonymous wrote:Not true. I was just wondering what "code" atheists live by.

Most Christians live by a moral code and doing what is right/wrong, so just wondering how that differed from atheists who don't believe in the belief system that governs how Christians live.

In essence, where did "morality" come from?

Personally, by a heavily Christian code. I grew up in New England and was raised in the Christian tradition, so while I don't believe in Christ As God / the hereafter, I *do* believe in Christ / Christ's teachings as a (start of a) guide for how to live in THIS world. And while I don't believe Christian teachings are the be all end all, I have found many of the fundamental principles of Christ's teaching to be a good basis for how to treat others and the world, so I am sure my internal sense of right and wrong rests heavily on a Christian foundation.

And while I don't actually believe in a Great Spirit, there is a hymn in the Methodist hymnal (based on a Native American prayer) that speaks to me in terms of how I wish to lead my life.

"O Great Spirit, whose breath gives life to the world, And whose voice is heard in the soft breeze: We need your strength and wisdom. Cause us to walk in beauty. Give us eyes ever to behold the red and purple sunset. Make us wise so that we may understand what you have taught us. Help us learn the lessons you have hidden in every leaf and rock. Make us always ready to come to you with clean hands and steady eyes, So when life fades, like the fading sunset, our spirits may come to you without shame. Amen." -United Methodist Hymnal, #329

Anonymous wrote:Being nice makes me feel good.

Being mean makes me feel bad.

I know the difference between good and evil like I know the difference between chocolate and vanilla. I don't need the threat of hell to make me be good. Hell is being bad and then hating yourself for it.

"Harm none, and do what you will".

Do you agree that for there to be good and evil, there has to be a creator of it? Otherwise, the terms wouldn't exist and folks could do whatever they want.

Anonymous wrote:

It's empathy. It's innate.

Agree with this. But why is it innate? Again, I am far from a fundie Christian. I'm speaking more from a spiritual view than a religious one. Where does that innate feeling of good vs. bad come from?

It is innate because the ability to empathize with others helps our species survive. Most specifically, I believe a mother's ability to empathize with her children helps her respond most effectively to their needs, ensuring the survival of the next generation. Those who successfully survived were selected for this trait by evolution. IMHO

Where the discipline and moral sophistication come in, IMHO, is in applying this innate imperative to empathize with your own offspring to others outside of your family group. To those who look different, act different, do not (on the surface seem to) share genes with you. I believe Buddism refers to this as the "illusion of separateness". If one can understand that the pain you inflict on the other is a pain you are ultimately inflicting on yourself and your loved ones.

So I need to remember when I want to be an ass to that person who just cut me off in traffic, that that person is no different than myslef, or my own daughter, and I should do unto that driver as I would have someone do unto me or her.

Some people may need a formal dogma to train them to this behavior. I don't believe that I need this formal system and I am trying to teach my children to be moral without relying on mythology and fear to enforce it. Being kind is its own reward.

I'm a Catholic but that religion doesn't "govern" my life, nor would I expect a religion to "govern" my life.

You should be a good person because it is intrinsically the right thing to do not because a religion tells you to. That's a funny notion - without religion would it be all chaos - I think not. In fact, you have to question people who do things only in the name of their religion - usually fanatics.

Anonymous wrote:

It's empathy. It's innate.

Agree with this. But why is it innate? Again, I am far from a fundie Christian. I'm speaking more from a spiritual view than a religious one. Where does that innate feeling of good vs. bad come from?

Because we evolved as social animals.

Anonymous wrote:

It's empathy. It's innate.

Agree with this. But why is it innate? Again, I am far from a fundie Christian. I'm speaking more from a spiritual view than a religious one. Where does that innate feeling of good vs. bad come from?

Natural selection and other aspects of evolution.

Anonymous wrote:My morality is internally driven but derives from my rationality as conditioned by the current norms of society, the socialization I received during my childhood etc.

I try to live with integrity, compassion, and humor.

Totally agree. And I know only I am responsible for my actions and can't thank or blame a higher power. I also can't screw up and then go ask for/receive forgiveness on Sunday.

As to the recklessness - I can't imagine there is a link with atheism. How exactly does that play out?

My humanity commands how I live my life. Treating people how I want to be treated.

I'm not looking for any reward. I'm not looking for "blessings," or heaven, or anything self-serving.

I do good, because my humanity is enough - even if I don't get anything in return. To me, if you really need some book to tell you how to be a decent human being, then your ethics must be very flimsy - because you're basically admitting that being decent is not innate within you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What governs how I live my life? I don't need any external governance ... I have an internal understanding of right and wrong. Almost everybody does.

New poster. Not being snarky- where do you think that internal understanding comes from? I am far, far, far from the conservative Christian Right. But I have come to believe that we were provided this moral compass by a creator. It is when we act outside this internal sence of conscience that conflict occurs.

Why have you come to believe that? I have come to believe that our moral compass derives from our nature as social beings.

Tell me one thing - was the Aztec's feeling that mass human sacrifice was the right moral thing to do provided by your creator?

Exactly. Also inspired by said creator:


Persecution of early Christians by Romans

The Crusades

The Inquisition

The Hundred Years' War

The Salem Witch Trials

Westboro Baptist Church

Congressional Republican "Social Conservative" Types: No contraceptives for you!

Centuries of war in the Balkans

I'm sure I could come up with another couple hundred examples if I didn't have to go to work.

It's empathy. It's innate.

Agree with this. But why is it innate? Again, I am far from a fundie Christian. I'm speaking more from a spiritual view than a religious one. Where does that innate feeling of good vs. bad come from?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What governs how I live my life? I don't need any external governance ... I have an internal understanding of right and wrong. Almost everybody does.

New poster. Not being snarky- where do you think that internal understanding comes from? I am far, far, far from the conservative Christian Right. But I have come to believe that we were provided this moral compass by a creator. It is when we act outside this internal sence of conscience that conflict occurs.

Not the poster you are quoting but even supposing for argument's sake that that is true, it has nothing to do with the question. OP's question seems to presuppose you need to believe (not that there needs to be a God, but that you need to believe in it) to have any [b]sense of morality.[/b]

Not true. I was just wondering what "code" atheists live by.

Most Christians live by a moral code and doing what is right/wrong, so just wondering how that differed from atheists who don't believe in the belief system that governs how Christians live.

In essence, where did "morality" come from?

So humans are born with innate concepts of morality, of right and wrong. These are programmed into our nature since we evolved as social animals who had to cooperate with each other to survive. Now, the exact form that this morality takes can be determined by religion - sacrificing children to appease the rain god, for example. Or it can be formed on a rational basis: what standards must we live by if we are to ensure the good of society, and thereby our own wellbeing: a certain set of human rights that should not be infringed, principles such as doing no harm to others and so on.