Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

Well, no, I understand this. I've known plenty of people who basically refused to use any form of BC, got pregnant (duh!) and then acted all surprised and indignant that it had happened. It was like, hello? Did you not take sex ed in school? Unprotected sex in your 20's = baby a large percentage of the time. This is basic. And I am staunchly pro-choice, but I do judge people like this for being stupid as hell and having fucked up priorities. So it's more "convenient" to have an abortion than it is to use a condom? WTF? Anyone with any self-respect will go out of their way to avoid ever having an unplanned pregnancy or an abortion.

Not the PP you're responding to or any of the PPs on this thread, but honestly, this is part of the problem. Sure, I "took" sex ed in school. It was a small unit in a general, one semester health class that made up the half of sophomore year that was not driver's ed. It was taught by one of the football coaches. The message we received was "Don't have sex because you'll get diseases." As for birth control, we were basically taught that there are many forms of "birth control" including the rhythm method, pulling out, condoms, pills, etc., but that none of them are perfectly effective. Then it was back to more slide shows about the horrors of genital warts.

I'm 32 years old. I was educated by my parents, and certainly I learned other things in other classes later, but I went to a decent sized public high school in a college town that hosts a Big Ten university. It wasn't the backwoods, and we basically learned nothing. It sounds like the OP's friend probably knows more about birth control than my high school sex ed teacher, what with the PhD and all, but being an asshole to her because of her reproductive decisions is just as wrong as any of the smug young moms who judge older women with fertility issues for "waiting too long". And I'm pretty sure the OP knows that.

OP, work through your uncharitable issues. Be kind to your friend.

Oh give me an effing break. OP's friend has a PhD for Chrissakes. She is not some uneduated "aww shucks" backwoods hick who never learned about sex. She made a conscious choice and she knew what the consequences could be. OP, I feel you. I couldn't be friends with someone like this. I would lose absolutely all respect for them.

OP, does she know you're struggling with infertility? I had an abortion when I wasn't ready to have a baby yet but I never would have told my sister about when she was having a lot if trouble getting and staying pregnant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

Well, no, I understand this. I've known plenty of people who basically refused to use any form of BC, got pregnant (duh!) and then acted all surprised and indignant that it had happened. It was like, hello? Did you not take sex ed in school? Unprotected sex in your 20's = baby a large percentage of the time. This is basic. And I am staunchly pro-choice, but I do judge people like this for being stupid as hell and having fucked up priorities. So it's more "convenient" to have an abortion than it is to use a condom? WTF? Anyone with any self-respect will go out of their way to avoid ever having an unplanned pregnancy or an abortion.

Not the PP you're responding to or any of the PPs on this thread, but honestly, this is part of the problem. Sure, I "took" sex ed in school. It was a small unit in a general, one semester health class that made up the half of sophomore year that was not driver's ed. It was taught by one of the football coaches. The message we received was "Don't have sex because you'll get diseases." As for birth control, we were basically taught that there are many forms of "birth control" including the rhythm method, pulling out, condoms, pills, etc., but that none of them are perfectly effective. Then it was back to more slide shows about the horrors of genital warts.

I'm 32 years old. I was educated by my parents, and certainly I learned other things in other classes later, but I went to a decent sized public high school in a college town that hosts a Big Ten university. It wasn't the backwoods, and we basically learned nothing. It sounds like the OP's friend probably knows more about birth control than my high school sex ed teacher, what with the PhD and all, but being an asshole to her because of her reproductive decisions is just as wrong as any of the smug young moms who judge older women with fertility issues for "waiting too long". And I'm pretty sure the OP knows that.

OP, work through your uncharitable issues. Be kind to your friend.

Anonymous wrote:You are not a real friend.

1) Your friend just had an abortion - you should be empathic right now. That's horrible to go through.

2) You wish infertility on her?

Check yourself!

Another one who is unwilling to recognize that OP's friend brought the abortion on herself. Sorry if you think it makes me a bad person, but I think people who set themselves up to fall basically deserve what they get. If OP's friend is feeling "horrible" right now well, maybe that is the price she has to pay to realize that her behavior is utterly irresponsible. Hopefully she'll give some thought now as to whether BC is more "inconvenient" than an abortion, before she ends up in the clinic for abortion #2.

You are not a real friend.

1) Your friend just had an abortion - you should be empathic right now. That's horrible to go through.

2) You wish infertility on her?

Check yourself!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

Well, she certainly sounds like one. It may be true. You're rationalizing completely irresponsibel behavior (refusal to go on birth control for questionable reasons, plus continued unprotected sex) that led to an unnecessary abortion. Even that most ardent pro-choice people (and I include myself in that group) can look down their noses at that.

OP, I don't blame you for being upset, and I'd have a hard time being around her. You may want to try to work on wishing that bad things happen to her, though. That won;t do anyone any good, and may cause you to feel very bad if they DO have trouble conceiving.

Yep. And yes, I think that wishing infertility on her is just going to make you feel worse, OP. I'm guessing you probably won't be able to hang on to this friendship. You've lost respect for her, and you're not likely to get it back now.

It is really dumb not to use birth control.

But it is a really awful thing to have a baby you are not ready for.

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

Well, she certainly sounds like one. It may be true. You're rationalizing completely irresponsibel behavior (refusal to go on birth control for questionable reasons, plus continued unprotected sex) that led to an unnecessary abortion. Even that most ardent pro-choice people (and I include myself in that group) can look down their noses at that.

OP, I don't blame you for being upset, and I'd have a hard time being around her. You may want to try to work on wishing that bad things happen to her, though. That won;t do anyone any good, and may cause you to feel very bad if they DO have trouble conceiving.

OP, you are free to feel this way, but that baby was not your baby. It was theirs. She couldn't transplant that baby from her uterus to yours. It is sad, but they know what is best for them at the time. That baby could very well have been born into a home that really didn't want it.

Lets face it some people probably shouldn't be parents. But they probably will have no problem having kids.

It is nice to know that dcum is full of non-judgemental types Oh wait, as long as the stance is pro abortion for what it appears to be a couple that just found timing inconvenient. And it is fine for educated women to not take responsibility for their reproductive health. I guess your facts are straight since these were your friends and I assume that they don't just tell everyone about their sex lives. Honestly question your own judgment if you are friends with these kinds of people. I can't imagine telling my childless friends (that want kids) that I had an abortion out of convenience even if I did.

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

Well, no, I understand this. I've known plenty of people who basically refused to use any form of BC, got pregnant (duh!) and then acted all surprised and indignant that it had happened. It was like, hello? Did you not take sex ed in school? Unprotected sex in your 20's = baby a large percentage of the time. This is basic. And I am staunchly pro-choice, but I do judge people like this for being stupid as hell and having fucked up priorities. So it's more "convenient" to have an abortion than it is to use a condom? WTF? Anyone with any self-respect will go out of their way to avoid ever having an unplanned pregnancy or an abortion.

I don't think you necessarily have to be compassionate or non judgmental, and I certainly don't think you have to be her shoulder to lean on, but I don't think it is okay to wish infertility on her and say you think she doesn't deserve kids. I think that is where the line gets crossed into something worse than simply being pissed off at your friend.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

I know women like this, my college roommate used abortions (she had 4 or 5) as birth control. Went on to have three kids.

I think OP would rather a woman use some sort of protection (condoms or whatever) than just abort. I know the personally I don't think that abortion should be used as a contraception.

We are also talking about a PhD here so dingbat is probably not the right word. She should know better. I personally think it is shameful for an educated woman to be so stupid when there are a million forms of contraception out there. And OP, perhaps her fiance was the real cause of the abortion.

+1.

I am very resentful of a smart, educated friend I had, who also hated condoms, got pregnant, aborted. 10 years later at 35 and 38 got pregnant first try both times. Flaunted it everywhere, how easy it was, how she always knew she was really fertile and would get pregnant easily, sneered at my process, "just relax", "just do it when you have to have it" (she's no longer a friend). I have always been responsible, never put myself in the position of killing my child, I used birth control. I paid attention to who I slept with. And still, I have had a hellish infertility journey.

I don't think you need to feel bad for being resentful. The Zen-master posters here who think you should be accepting are being very unrealistic. Or kidding themselves.

By the way, I am 100% pro-choice when it comes to public poliy, but after feeling the grief of miscarriage, I know that you are killing a child. Most of my pro-choice friends, including the one I described above, admit that--you're terminating a life that is already here, but legally, it needs to be allowed. I STILL believe it's a woman's right to do it, as it is in her body, and forbidding it leads to so many social ills, whereas allowing it keeps it civilized--because it has happened since the beginning of time and will always happen regardless of laws, so keep it safe and legal. But that doesn't mean I have to view it as a positive thing--or even react with compassion. I'm the wrong place to go for that compassion--I can't be everything to everybody.

If you killed the baby inside you while I've been giving everything I have to hold onto one, then I am NOT going to be sympathetic, I'm not the one to turn to for comfort, and guess what--that's OK. You're going to have to go somewhere else for understanding, not to a woman who has been turned inside out and tortured with infertility.

Yeesh, we're expected to be perfectly non-judgmental, compassionate saints in addition to everything else we're dealing with?

I'm always amazed when someone struggling with fertility wishes infertility on others. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I think this is a sign that you need to get into some therapy. Along the way, you're going to come across people who have abortions, people who you think you would make a better parent than, people whose parenting styles you find awful (not talking abuse) etc. If you go through life wishing ill thoughts towards these people, you'll end up very bitter.

I understand why you're mad at your friend, I really do. After struggling with infertility for X number of years, a close friend had an abortion a month after I had a very rough miscarriage (She found out she was pregnant around the time I was miscarrying). She was honest about it and I HATED her for awhile. It was the wife of DH's best friend and I couldn't be around her for quite awhile because of the situation. Finally, DH sat me down and explained why they didn't think it was the right time to have a baby, and honestly, it made me realize that they were not cut out to be parents at that moment in time. The baby honestly would not have been brought up in a very good environment because of issues they were having between themselves, as well as financially. It's been about 7 months, and things are almost back to normal between us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't blame you for feeling upset. What I find somewhat distasteful is the way you discount her reasons for getting pregnant (she went off the pill because it ruined her skin -- is that not a valid reason for wanting to go off the pill? she continued to have sex -- oh my god, what a whore! She didn't want to spend the money on an IUD -- so what?)

OP, stop marginalizing her. It's okay to feel uncomfortable around her but it's not okay to depict her as some kind of valueless dingbat tightwad trollop.

I know women like this, my college roommate used abortions (she had 4 or 5) as birth control. Went on to have three kids.

I think OP would rather a woman use some sort of protection (condoms or whatever) than just abort. I know the personally I don't think that abortion should be used as a contraception.

We are also talking about a PhD here so dingbat is probably not the right word. She should know better. I personally think it is shameful for an educated woman to be so stupid when there are a million forms of contraception out there. And OP, perhaps her fiance was the real cause of the abortion.

So you know this woman has had 4-5 abortions? Or you believe because she is fertile she is using abortion as birth control?

Let me ask that instead of using the word stupid you consider using the word unlucky.