Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Working parents however have difficulty taking off of work to physically go to the school to see the exam. Would an online system be an option? A system that would allow you to see your child's exam without printing it or altering it? I have received private company documents that way. Much better than scheduling an appointment but someone would have to scan the exams in. Could be minimized if reserved for situations in which a parent has difficulties attending the meeting or makes a request. Would be a cheaper option than paying resource teachers and classroom teachers to sit with parents just to see the exam or unit test. Trying to think outside of the box to find middle ground.

I think there is middle ground to be reached. When my oldest was in sixth grade, I asked to see a summative on which he had performed badly. My son wasn't a good student and I was working with him, tutors and his doctors (ADHD issues) to figure out how best to help him. I was not able to see the actual exam, but the teacher came to my house in the evening to review my sons performance and to give me insight into his problems. Her observations coupled with some concrete examples were far better than actually seeing the exam. No other teacher has ever come to my house, though i run into them in the community - grocery store, Baskin Robbins, etc. But I have been able to get this same type of feedback from teachers through email. The benefit of this is that I can keep it and refer back to it as I need. I have rarely come across a teacher who isn't willing to communicate extensively through email about my kids' school performance.

Also, when I've raised concerns, teachers have pulled my kids out of lunch to meet with them to discuss my concerns and to work with them, which is a really effective tool.

So, no I haven't ever seen a test, but I've gotten tons of information from teachers about how my kids are doing and how to work with them. I'm not sure what more the tests would do for me.

Anonymous wrote:

Most jurisdictions across the US do not find the need to lock up unit tests and exams. It sure wasn't done in MCPS till a few years ago. Your argument re: not wanting to write new tests comes off as lazy and you truly should find a new profession if you are not interested in the complete loop of the education process. Kids need the feedback from these assessments so they can learn from their mistakes and improve their test taking skills in the future. I am sure if all your parents and all your students took the initiative to make appointments to see these tests, that requirement on your time is far greater than rewriting a test.

20 years ago in MCPS when I was in high school, the exams were not distributed. Several people have tried to offer you explanation and/or suggestions, but you only seem interested in ranting and then insulting the teachers.

Not so. I am much younger than you and a MCPS grad. I got my graded exams back.

Anonymous wrote:Last year, my son who's an A math student received a C on the first smester exam -- when I asked the teacher if he could review the exam, I was given the same rigamarole as you (he can't see it, it's offsite, etc.), and said that his performance was probably "a fluke." He failed the second semester exam (and so, despite having an A for the 3rd and 4th quarters, he ended up with a semester grade -- the one that goes on his high school transcript -- of a B). But an A student failing an exam, got their attention, and the math resource teacher (who was not my son's classroom teacher) had no problem pulling back his exam from wherever it had been or going over it with him, question-answer by question-answer so that he (and I) left the meeting understanding why he'd failed the exam; I'm sure that meeting was helpful to his earning a B on this year's first semester math exam. Maybe if I had pushed harder for my son when he uncharacteristically earned a C on the first semester exam, he wouldn't have failed the second semester exam. So although it's frustrating, OP don't give up on having someone -- and doesn't matter if he/she isn't your daughter's particular teacher -- sit down with your daughter so that she can see where she got off track on the exam and more importantly so that she can learn how to stay on track. As the math resource teacher told my son during our meeting "the exams don't stop, so you need to figure out how to take them." On reflection, I think that the school was initially dismissive of me because the first semester exam did not have an impact on my son's semester grade (he still has an A, so why are you bothering us?); they just couldn't seem to get their minds around the notion that the C grade had raised a red flag for me (like whether he was actually mastering the classroom material, whether there were significant differences between the classroom/unit tests and county/standard semester exams, etc.) and seemed unwilling to "do" anything until he actually failed. But I have no complaints about the support he was provided once he hit the floor -- so maybe that's how they're set-up: they'll help you get back up when you fall, but they won't, or don't have the resources to, keep you from falling.

+ 100 - This is why unit tests and exams should be accessible for everyone.

Working parents however have difficulty taking off of work to physically go to the school to see the exam. Would an online system be an option? A system that would allow you to see your child's exam without printing it or altering it? I have received private company documents that way. Much better than scheduling an appointment but someone would have to scan the exams in. Could be minimized if reserved for situations in which a parent has difficulties attending the meeting or makes a request. Would be a cheaper option than paying resource teachers and classroom teachers to sit with parents just to see the exam or unit test. Trying to think outside of the box to find middle ground.

Most jurisdictions across the US do not find the need to lock up unit tests and exams. It sure wasn't done in MCPS till a few years ago. Your argument re: not wanting to write new tests comes off as lazy and you truly should find a new profession if you are not interested in the complete loop of the education process. Kids need the feedback from these assessments so they can learn from their mistakes and improve their test taking skills in the future. I am sure if all your parents and all your students took the initiative to make appointments to see these tests, that requirement on your time is far greater than rewriting a test.

20 years ago in MCPS when I was in high school, the exams were not distributed. Several people have tried to offer you explanation and/or suggestions, but you only seem interested in ranting and then insulting the teachers.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're truly living in La La Land.

I'm sure your child can see her teachers to go over unit tests throughout the year if her teachers don't go over them in class. If your daughter is now in HS, it's high time that she begin to advocate for herself. She needs her helicopter Mom to calm down and let HER be the one that meets with her teachers to review material she missed on tests. Enough of the Mommy hand-holding!

As far as tests leaving the building is concerned, forget about it. Tests can easily be copied and a totally new test would have to be written each and every year for each and every unit a teacher teaches. Not the simple tweaking that you write about above which BTW happens anyway. Do you even have a clue who writes these tests? I'll give you a hint...the vast majority are NOT written at the county level. It's the classroom teacher, and it takes a LONG time to write a good test. I suppose teachers have time coming out of their ears and are therefore able to recreate every test they give every year so YOU can look them over at home instead of having your child review them with her teacher. There's no need for a parent of a HS student to review each test her daughter or son takes. Time to take the rotary blades off Mom!

I truly feel sad for the student (if you have any) who are in classes with teachers like you. By your email you are stereotyping students and parents into one category. A mom is a helicopter mom if she actually cares what happened on her daughter's exams. I'm sure your attitude comes off well in the classroom and is inviting to your students for coming in for extra help and to ask questions.

My daughter has an IEP and learning disabilities. Her testing can be inconsistent for a variety of reasons. She is a child who spends more time than average studying. She is a child that speaks up for her accommodations and makes routine appointments with teachers for extended time and extra curriculum explanation. She just keeps tripping up over the longer assessments. Her poor exams did not impact her overall grades because she was able to demonstrate better her skills and knowledge through the shorter quizzes and unit tests. She is a pretty solid student when all the grades are calculated.

It is not her GPA or the overall class grades I have concerned with. It is generalized test taking strategies at issue, a skill not in the curriculum nor is supported through instruction by her teachers. It probably should be added as a goal with objectives for her special education team to teach her. Not really in the training for most teachers, especially teachers who are unfamiliar with her unique set of disabilities. Working with my daughter, talking with experts in the field of Special Education, as well as the advice she gets from her tutor, I am knowledgeable about my daughters strengths and weaknesses far better than most of her teachers. Certain strategies are better for her than others when it comes to memorizing information and taking long tests.

Most jurisdictions across the US do not find the need to lock up unit tests and exams. It sure wasn't done in MCPS till a few years ago. Your argument re: not wanting to write new tests comes off as lazy and you truly should find a new profession if you are not interested in the complete loop of the education process. Kids need the feedback from these assessments so they can learn from their mistakes and improve their test taking skills in the future. I am sure if all your parents and all your students took the initiative to make appointments to see these tests, that requirement on your time is far greater than rewriting a test.

Last year, my son who's an A math student received a C on the first smester exam -- when I asked the teacher if he could review the exam, I was given the same rigamarole as you (he can't see it, it's offsite, etc.), and said that his performance was probably "a fluke." He failed the second semester exam (and so, despite having an A for the 3rd and 4th quarters, he ended up with a semester grade -- the one that goes on his high school transcript -- of a B). But an A student failing an exam, got their attention, and the math resource teacher (who was not my son's classroom teacher) had no problem pulling back his exam from wherever it had been or going over it with him, question-answer by question-answer so that he (and I) left the meeting understanding why he'd failed the exam; I'm sure that meeting was helpful to his earning a B on this year's first semester math exam. Maybe if I had pushed harder for my son when he uncharacteristically earned a C on the first semester exam, he wouldn't have failed the second semester exam. So although it's frustrating, OP don't give up on having someone -- and doesn't matter if he/she isn't your daughter's particular teacher -- sit down with your daughter so that she can see where she got off track on the exam and more importantly so that she can learn how to stay on track. As the math resource teacher told my son during our meeting "the exams don't stop, so you need to figure out how to take them." On reflection, I think that the school was initially dismissive of me because the first semester exam did not have an impact on my son's semester grade (he still has an A, so why are you bothering us?); they just couldn't seem to get their minds around the notion that the C grade had raised a red flag for me (like whether he was actually mastering the classroom material, whether there were significant differences between the classroom/unit tests and county/standard semester exams, etc.) and seemed unwilling to "do" anything until he actually failed. But I have no complaints about the support he was provided once he hit the floor -- so maybe that's how they're set-up: they'll help you get back up when you fall, but they won't, or don't have the resources to, keep you from falling.

Anonymous wrote:The teacher is not jaded. You're just not smart enough to understand how the process works.

So let me help you.

Core classes have county finals. Once the results are finalized (scores put into the system), the finals are indeed sent back to central office. So if Important Mom of Snowflake wants to look at them, she'll have to go through central office, as teachers do not make copies of each one. Teachers are under a deadline, too. So it's not as though these finals are hanging around, collecting dust in the schools.

High school courses are semesterized, too. So once the final is given, the course is done, and grades are finalized.

Furthermore, if Important Mom of Snowflake had paid attention to Snowflake's grade all along, IMS would know that formatives (as well as reteaching/reassessing - another component to a teacher's job) were given over the semester. So if Snowflake had a solid 85 over the semester, the chances of earning a 95 on an exam are slim.

I love these tired old lines -

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.

Since when is a teacher jaded when s/he is doing his/her job? Such displaced hostility you have, buttercup.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The exams in the middle of the year are final exams. The material will not be tested again at the end of the year. I know that at the school in which I teach the exams are already shipped out. The is no possibility of going over them. If you were my student's parent, even if you had contacted me earlier it would have been the same thing as you were told: meet before school or after. Unfortunately, I have children too and would not be able to accommodate your schedule in this case. I would give up my lunch or a planning period to go over it with the student.
Ideal? Of course not, but it is reality. FWIW, the only time I have ever had a parent interested in this is when the student is grade grubbing for a point or two on the BCRs to swing them up a letter grade. I have never once had anyone look over their exams for legitimate learning purposes. Sad, but true. That's not to mean you feel that way, OP, but consider that is what we deal with constantly. Maybe your principal is jaded from all of the angry helicopter parents.

Under the law, whether the tests are "shipped out" or not, the student and parent still must have access if they ask for it.

If you would give up your lunch or planning period for a student, you must also do so for the student and parent together.

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.

+1

The teacher is not jaded. You're just not smart enough to understand how the process works.

So let me help you.

Core classes have county finals. Once the results are finalized (scores put into the system), the finals are indeed sent back to central office. So if Important Mom of Snowflake wants to look at them, she'll have to go through central office, as teachers do not make copies of each one. Teachers are under a deadline, too. So it's not as though these finals are hanging around, collecting dust in the schools.

High school courses are semesterized, too. So once the final is given, the course is done, and grades are finalized.

Furthermore, if Important Mom of Snowflake had paid attention to Snowflake's grade all along, IMS would know that formatives (as well as reteaching/reassessing - another component to a teacher's job) were given over the semester. So if Snowflake had a solid 85 over the semester, the chances of earning a 95 on an exam are slim.

I love these tired old lines -

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.

Since when is a teacher jaded when s/he is doing his/her job? Such displaced hostility you have, buttercup.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The exams in the middle of the year are final exams. The material will not be tested again at the end of the year. I know that at the school in which I teach the exams are already shipped out. The is no possibility of going over them. If you were my student's parent, even if you had contacted me earlier it would have been the same thing as you were told: meet before school or after. Unfortunately, I have children too and would not be able to accommodate your schedule in this case. I would give up my lunch or a planning period to go over it with the student.
Ideal? Of course not, but it is reality. FWIW, the only time I have ever had a parent interested in this is when the student is grade grubbing for a point or two on the BCRs to swing them up a letter grade. I have never once had anyone look over their exams for legitimate learning purposes. Sad, but true. That's not to mean you feel that way, OP, but consider that is what we deal with constantly. Maybe your principal is jaded from all of the angry helicopter parents.

Under the law, whether the tests are "shipped out" or not, the student and parent still must have access if they ask for it.

If you would give up your lunch or planning period for a student, you must also do so for the student and parent together.

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.

OP, you're truly living in La La Land.

I'm sure your child can see her teachers to go over unit tests throughout the year if her teachers don't go over them in class. If your daughter is now in HS, it's high time that she begin to advocate for herself. She needs her helicopter Mom to calm down and let HER be the one that meets with her teachers to review material she missed on tests. Enough of the Mommy hand-holding!

As far as tests leaving the building is concerned, forget about it. Tests can easily be copied and a totally new test would have to be written each and every year for each and every unit a teacher teaches. Not the simple tweaking that you write about above which BTW happens anyway. Do you even have a clue who writes these tests? I'll give you a hint...the vast majority are NOT written at the county level. It's the classroom teacher, and it takes a LONG time to write a good test. I suppose teachers have time coming out of their ears and are therefore able to recreate every test they give every year so YOU can look them over at home instead of having your child review them with her teacher. There's no need for a parent of a HS student to review each test her daughter or son takes. Time to take the rotary blades off Mom!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -

The school is saying to be able to see all of my daughter's exams (5 exams in total), I have to contact each teacher and each department head and schedule each as a separate meeting. The meetings can only be held before school (which would be before 7am) or after school (at 2pm), not during their 1 hour lunch period because that is considered teacher planning time.

In a sense, their demands is denying me access because I do have younger children that are home in the mornings that I have to see off to school (try hiring a sitter to do that before 7am - impossible) and I do have a job. I can take off 1 day, maybe 2, but I cannot take 5 days off from work and the commuting time alone traveling back and forth would be ridiculous.

I actually work on Capitol Hill and know a lot about FERPA. I have quoted it to my principal and she doesn't bat an eye. The problem is in the enforcement - not much teeth in that department and a pain in the ass to file a complaint through the Dept. of Education. I also think (and so do some colleagues) that in today's day in age, FERPA needs to be amended to give parents and students the right to have copies of their educational records, not just to be able to read them. If I could demand a copy, then these ridiculous meeting times would not be a roadblock to me reviewing the exams with my child and my child would be able to reference them when preparing for the final.

What good does it do the students to have them take a 2 hour exam then never see the actual result? What good does it do MCPS to gather the data then just chuck it somewhere under lock and key that it seems that no one even knows where all the paper goes? Such a waste of time and money and loss of educational potential.

Do you actually need to have the teacher present when you review the exam? I think this would only be necessary if you didn't think you could look at the exams yourself and see what the right answer should have been. This might be necessary in a subject like Algebra or Science or in an English or World Studies class where the answers were essays and you might need an explanation about how the grading rubric was applied.

If you don't need the teacher, write the principal back and say so and that you want to see them all at once and give one or two date/times when you would be free. Explain again about how the offered option doesn't meet the FERPA standard of access.

Sometimes it is possible to tell without the teacher why the student did poorly (didn't finish all the Qs, consistently made certain kinds of mistakes, didn't enter answers correctly on scantron, etc.) But, sometimes it's not (don't know the grading rubric for an essay, don't know the substance well enough to see what the right answer was, can't tell from the test how much each question was worth, etc.) If you need the teacher, you're sort of stuck getting on the teacher's schedule, but he/she should absolutely accommodate you during lunch or a planning period, especially with an advance appointment, because these are usually the times that they are regularly available for students. Ask your child when she can seek help from a teacher in normal circumstances at her school.

You should make sure to go in with your student together to review the test. It's a better learning experience for them that way.

OP here again -

To the PP above, what I bolded makes complete sense and that is how I approached my conversations with the Principal and Assistant Principal at our school. Yes, it would be logical (inconvenient for a working parent) but logical to have one meeting where all the exams are present at one time so I can look over them with my child. I don't care who the staffer is that meets with us. It could be any warm body in the building that is put in place to make sure I don't alter or copy the documents (heaven forbid they should be copied).

My child school has stated that it is a requirement that both the teacher and the department chair be present just so I can see the exams with my child. These meetings therefore have to be at separate times because they all cannot be coordinated for the same appointment. As a working parent, that requirement is infringing on my rights to have access to the documents because multiple 20 minutes appointments means I have to lose a significant amount of work time and travel expense to view the documents. By the timeline they gave me, my child would miss 2 1/2 hours of instructional time in two of her core academic classes to see the exams with me.

My daughter has a learning disability. Her performance can be inconsistent and long tests seem to be especially problematic for her. I can look at the test patterns and tell were there careless mistakes made, see if her performance waxed and waned as she took the test, or did she miss whole concepts all together and truly struggled, consistently throughout the entire test. I also look to see which parts of the tests tripped her up the most - was it the essays or did she have problems with the multiple choice. I have never challenged a grade that she has received. Looking forward to college, we would both just like to review the tests to see if there are better ways for her to prepare in the future and to know what concepts she needs to go back and relearn. She is still learning how to study and how to take long tests - skills she will desperately need to have by college.

My children began taking 2 hour exams since 6th grade. The comment several PP's ago that these tests are only taken in high school is inaccurate. To do the math - if a child takes 5 academic classes, those classes have approximately 8 unit tests that are "secured documents" that don't come home for parents and students to review. To see all the unit tests for one child, that would be about 40 appointments. If parents also need to see the exams, 5 exams twice a year would be 10 more meetings. Therefore, a parent would need to schedule about 50 appointments to see all their child's unit tests and exams. If you have two children, that would be 100 appointments, and so on. Impossible for the parent and child to get much needed feedback so the child can learn from his/her mistakes.

To the PP that complained about these test being distributed across the county, for other assessments such as Map-R, Map-M, and standardized testing such as the Terra-Nova and 2nd grade GT testing, there is a test window period that all the children have to take the test. When the window closes, the student cannot take the test. For unit tests and exams, MCPS can have a similar test window so then the exams can go home after the test window closes. Simple, no one then would have access to the current test during the testing phase of a one or two week window. The kids though could use their unit tests to review prior to taking the mid-term or final exams.

Sure the county would have to rewrite the tests every year. But don't they do that pretty much already? The curriculum is constantly changing - some new material in, some old material out. The tests already have to be updated with these changes. Also, rewriting tests isn't reinventing the wheel. You move some questions around. Reword some of them, keep some of them, throw out some, and add some new. As one PP pointed out, often the rewriting is how tests are improved on and made better over time. Things get tweaked where they need to because patterns are evaluated to see if an unusually high percentage of students tripped over a particular question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The exams in the middle of the year are final exams. The material will not be tested again at the end of the year. I know that at the school in which I teach the exams are already shipped out. The is no possibility of going over them. If you were my student's parent, even if you had contacted me earlier it would have been the same thing as you were told: meet before school or after. Unfortunately, I have children too and would not be able to accommodate your schedule in this case. I would give up my lunch or a planning period to go over it with the student.
Ideal? Of course not, but it is reality. FWIW, the only time I have ever had a parent interested in this is when the student is grade grubbing for a point or two on the BCRs to swing them up a letter grade. I have never once had anyone look over their exams for legitimate learning purposes. Sad, but true. That's not to mean you feel that way, OP, but consider that is what we deal with constantly. Maybe your principal is jaded from all of the angry helicopter parents.

Under the law, whether the tests are "shipped out" or not, the student and parent still must have access if they ask for it.

If you would give up your lunch or planning period for a student, you must also do so for the student and parent together.

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.

That's really harsh PP. I thought it was an honest answer, not a bitter one. She didn't say she wouldn't meet with the parent and student, only that she could only do it at lunch when the parent is not available.

We've been really pleased with the teachers my DC has had in MCPS. I confess I've never asked to see and exam though, nor has DC as far as I m aware. DCs grades have rarely depended on the exams as they've always been pretty well set by the 2 quarter grades. The downside is that DC tends not to sweat the exams too much since he only needs a C or better to keep the A grade for the semester so is probably not doing his best work on the exams. OP is it possible that's the case with your DD as well?

Anonymous wrote:OP here -

The school is saying to be able to see all of my daughter's exams (5 exams in total), I have to contact each teacher and each department head and schedule each as a separate meeting. The meetings can only be held before school (which would be before 7am) or after school (at 2pm), not during their 1 hour lunch period because that is considered teacher planning time.

In a sense, their demands is denying me access because I do have younger children that are home in the mornings that I have to see off to school (try hiring a sitter to do that before 7am - impossible) and I do have a job. I can take off 1 day, maybe 2, but I cannot take 5 days off from work and the commuting time alone traveling back and forth would be ridiculous.

I actually work on Capitol Hill and know a lot about FERPA. I have quoted it to my principal and she doesn't bat an eye. The problem is in the enforcement - not much teeth in that department and a pain in the ass to file a complaint through the Dept. of Education. I also think (and so do some colleagues) that in today's day in age, FERPA needs to be amended to give parents and students the right to have copies of their educational records, not just to be able to read them. If I could demand a copy, then these ridiculous meeting times would not be a roadblock to me reviewing the exams with my child and my child would be able to reference them when preparing for the final.

What good does it do the students to have them take a 2 hour exam then never see the actual result? What good does it do MCPS to gather the data then just chuck it somewhere under lock and key that it seems that no one even knows where all the paper goes? Such a waste of time and money and loss of educational potential.

Do you actually need to have the teacher present when you review the exam? I think this would only be necessary if you didn't think you could look at the exams yourself and see what the right answer should have been. This might be necessary in a subject like Algebra or Science or in an English or World Studies class where the answers were essays and you might need an explanation about how the grading rubric was applied.

If you don't need the teacher, write the principal back and say so and that you want to see them all at once and give one or two date/times when you would be free. Explain again about how the offered option doesn't meet the FERPA standard of access.

Sometimes it is possible to tell without the teacher why the student did poorly (didn't finish all the Qs, consistently made certain kinds of mistakes, didn't enter answers correctly on scantron, etc.) But, sometimes it's not (don't know the grading rubric for an essay, don't know the substance well enough to see what the right answer was, can't tell from the test how much each question was worth, etc.) If you need the teacher, you're sort of stuck getting on the teacher's schedule, but he/she should absolutely accommodate you during lunch or a planning period, especially with an advance appointment, because these are usually the times that they are regularly available for students. Ask your child when she can seek help from a teacher in normal circumstances at her school.

You should make sure to go in with your student together to review the test. It's a better learning experience for them that way.

Anonymous wrote:The exams in the middle of the year are final exams. The material will not be tested again at the end of the year. I know that at the school in which I teach the exams are already shipped out. The is no possibility of going over them. If you were my student's parent, even if you had contacted me earlier it would have been the same thing as you were told: meet before school or after. Unfortunately, I have children too and would not be able to accommodate your schedule in this case. I would give up my lunch or a planning period to go over it with the student.
Ideal? Of course not, but it is reality. FWIW, the only time I have ever had a parent interested in this is when the student is grade grubbing for a point or two on the BCRs to swing them up a letter grade. I have never once had anyone look over their exams for legitimate learning purposes. Sad, but true. That's not to mean you feel that way, OP, but consider that is what we deal with constantly. Maybe your principal is jaded from all of the angry helicopter parents.

Under the law, whether the tests are "shipped out" or not, the student and parent still must have access if they ask for it.

If you would give up your lunch or planning period for a student, you must also do so for the student and parent together.

Sorry you have become a bitter, jaded teacher. You would be doing us all a favor if you found a new profession.