Anonymous wrote:17:17 Sick could mean he might die, he might not get better, etc., it seems like it would be more anxiety producing than he's got work. Plus if OP gets him to come over more, this won't be an issue.

Wow, you think kids assume sickness is a likely path to death?

Hi OP. Mom of two kids with bipolar ex-partner here. I definitely think you are better off explaining that Daddy is not feeling well right now, but when he feels better he will be around. Meanwhile your child can make a card, or call (if ex is up to it). If you can, try to build other "family" structures, whether it is increasing time with grandpa, uncles, etc.

In your thread it's still not clear to me why your ex isn't seeing the kids regularly? Have you talked to him in a non-judgemental way about it? Sometimes our expectations of the mentally ill spouse aren't realistic and rather than disappoint they just disappear, believing that's less painful for everyone (themselves included).

In the beginning of our split, my bipolar ex often changed visitation dates or didn't come over. My initial expectation was that we would do 50/50 split except that kids would sleep full-time at my house. He would come in the door and I would walk out and not come back until visitation was over. This was too much for my ex to handle. Even simple things (to me) like getting them fed or bathed were overwhelming for him. Eventually we fell into a pattern where he comes over for dinner or we go out together on the weekends to do things. This is much better. When ex isn't feeling well, all he has to do is come over and sit on the sofa and watch tv with the kids. When he is feeling better, he has the flexibility to do more. I basically judge on an ad hoc basis whether he needs support during the visit or it's safe for me to let him go out, how long and where, with the kids. But, of course, my judgement is never put in terms of "I don't think you're mentally well, I must accompany you today....."

Because the visits don't necessarily require that he is operating on all 4 cylinders, he is much more likely to come over regularly.

You say you don't have a lot of sympathy for him, because he stopped taking meds. I understand where you're coming from --- I kicked out my ex when I found out for the umpteenth time he stopped taking his meds (and stopped seeing his psychiatrist and started drinking again). Do you realize that this is a very common phenomenon in mental illness? It is really a part of the illness, particularly for those with bipolar and schizophrenia and depression. The meds make them feel better and then they think they feel good enough to stop. Or, particularly with bipolar, the meds take away the great manic feeling and they feel bad, so they stop. Also, some of the best meds that work also have really powerful yucky side effects, so it's not so irrational that the mentally ill person would choose to stop taking a med. It's hard for many non-mentally ill patients to take meds every day for the rest of their life. Try to have some sympathy. There's a difference between sympathy and approval, though.

Have you taken the NAMI Family to Family course? It's essential. Please sign up now. There are also support groups for family members of the mentally ill. Do you have a therapist for yourself? I found it helpful to have a therapist to help me strategize about how best to include/approach my mentally ill ex as well as to discuss how MY life was going. But to be helpful, it really has to be a therapist who is highly experienced with mental illness.

17:17 Sick could mean he might die, he might not get better, etc., it seems like it would be more anxiety producing than he's got work. Plus if OP gets him to come over more, this won't be an issue.

13:03 Of course we can disagree. And we do. In this context, with a split and then a major change in the visitation schedule, I think fudging the story to protect the children is better for the children for now, emphasis on "for now," considering their age.

"Daddy has to work" may seem like a situation that's out of his hands, but kids can wonder, "Why doesn't he get a job that leaves him more time to see me?"

"Sick" is something kids understand as beyond anyone's control.

OP, you need to stop wishing for your STBEx to be more proactive. It would be nice. He can't manage. You're going to have to do more of the work indefinitely, for your kids' sake.

But being so forthcoming is really about the parent's sense of truthfulness. We don't know what the children want. I believe children do not want or need to know these adult things, sometimes it takes a white lie or a sugarcoated story to protect them.

That's fine, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think this is certainly something about which reasonable people could disagree. I don't think children need to know about adult things in detail or that are beyond their abilities to process and comprehend, but would prefer to be general and age-appropriate, but truthful, as much as possible.

But being so forthcoming is really about the parent's sense of truthfulness. We don't know what the children want. I believe children do not want or need to know these adult things, sometimes it takes a white lie or a sugarcoated story to protect them. In the case of a child finding a mom crying, she could say, "I'm not having a great day. I'll feel better." This statement is TRUE. Just like OP telling her children their father has work. That is also true. There's a difference between withholding/sugarcoating and outright lying. The truth can be frightening, even when it's generalized.

Mental illness is complicated enough for a sixth grade to fathom, never mind a six-year-old.

Let's say a spouse strays. The other spouse finds out. They agree to save the marriage. One morning, a 4-year-old finds the mother crying in the kitchen and asks what wrong. What does the mother say? Your daddy had an affair and I am heartbroken? NO! She lies!

I generally don't lie to my kid, although it is not necessary to go into every detail of what the problem is - it is fine to be general, but truthful. I would say that mommy and daddy aren't getting along too well right now, and I'm sad, but we both love you very much. If my ex was mentally ill, I would say he was not feeling well and could not see DC as often as he would otherwise like to because of it.

The work excuse seems bad. What if OP works and yet spends time with her kids. The kids will make that connection. A family therapist would be best to work through this situation. I am of the camp of "daddy is taking care of some health issues that adults deal with but he loves you very much". Kids need the security of knowing both parents love them and his absence isn't due to them. One lie leads to another and another. You just need to know what age is appropriate to tell certain details to your kids.

As for the ludicrous comment above, I would say exactly that to my 4 yr old if an affair was involved as 1)the 4 yr old wont even know what you're talking about and 2) let the cheating dad explain why mommy is crying, which will be a lie and that lie will be on HIM and not ME. But that's not what this OP is even speaking of and that situation is way different than someone who is mentally ill

So, it's healthy to tell a 4- and 6-year-old that their father is mentally ill when their lives have been torn asunder first by the split then by the change in visitation? Seriously, what's healthy about that in this context? Telling a white lie now is not going to make the children feel rejected or abandoned. Telling the children that Dad's got work and will see you twice a week (if OP can push to get that) seems fine for now. And it's true. His work is to get well and resume his role as a parent. I cannot imagine that every pediatrician and child therapist in the world would be opposed to that approach. If the children's parents were together, a lie would not be right. If the children were older, they could handle the truth. We don't tell children everything.

Let's say a spouse strays. The other spouse finds out. They agree to save the marriage. One morning, a 4-year-old finds the mother crying in the kitchen and asks what wrong. What does the mother say? Your daddy had an affair and I am heartbroken? NO! She lies!

Anonymous wrote:One PP clearly stated that she wasn't family with custody.

Daddy has work conveys that it's out of his hands. (I didn't suggest Daddy is busy.)

Daddy is sick will produce questions, anxiety. Some sick people die. If Daddy could go away, and then Daddy stopped doing shared custody, he could die. Also, OP doesn't know if it's temporary.

I think OP should talk to a pediatrician and/or child psychiatrist about what to say.

Pediatricians and child psychiatrists will tell you to tell the child that daddy has an illness. Talking to someone is a great way to talk it through and see how to approach it for your particular child and situation.

Lying to your kids and making them feel rejected and abandoned is not healthy. Kids can handle the truth when presented age approximately.

Selling your child that their parent is sick when they are is perfectly fine. how you talk abot it is important. There are books and many resources on talking to kids about parent mental illness. there was a thread on this maybe a year or so ago? A pretty long one, there were lots of great suggestions in it around how to talk to the kids - maybe someone with better search skills than me could find it! (It wasn't about divorce / custody - just about explaining mental illness to a child)

If you had cancer and had to be hospitalized for awhile would you want your child thinking you were just away and too busy to see them?

Anonymous wrote:"familiar with custody" is what I meant to type.

That was me, I'm also 11:57. Laws and standards have changed a LOT since the 80s when my mom divorced my mentally ill father. Giving 50 pct custody to a mentally ill man, however medicated, wasn't done in those days, but clearly it is now. And the courts had no issue when she moved us 1000 miles away a year later, which I also understand is not as easy to do now as it was then.

OP knows best whether her kids will be more freaked out by daddy working or being sick (I never would have thought "sick=serious, could die," I would have thought "sick=fever, transient," but I was a pretty calm kid). All that I and other PPs are trying to say is that she should consider the emotional impact of the explanations she uses, and the long-term impact of those explanations being dishonest.

"familiar with custody" is what I meant to type.

One PP clearly stated that she wasn't family with custody.

Daddy has work conveys that it's out of his hands. (I didn't suggest Daddy is busy.)

Daddy is sick will produce questions, anxiety. Some sick people die. If Daddy could go away, and then Daddy stopped doing shared custody, he could die. Also, OP doesn't know if it's temporary.

I think OP should talk to a pediatrician and/or child psychiatrist about what to say.

Anonymous wrote:Daddy's sick? Are you kidding? Have any of you been through divorce? The separation is hard enough at this age. These kids will become even more anxious. If you say Daddy's got a project, or Daddy's got work, well, that could be anything, including regaining his mental health.

OP, I'd try to get him to do something on a regular basis, once or twice a week, until he becomes more functional. It's a shame he isn't proactive, but you're not taking the lead means the children don't see him.

If things do not improve, you can explain things to the chidren when they are older. Ideally, work with a family therapist. Divorce is hard enough with parents who do not have mental illness.

Best to you, OP.

Yes, many of us have been through divorce--from the kids POV, which is clear from our posts. It's why we know that the kids need explanations _now_. Not when they are older. So given that, what are the options?

"daddy is busy" sounds to kids this age like "daddy chose not to be here" which sounds like "daddy doesn't care about you." Wrong message for what I hope are obvious reasons.
"daddy is sick"--this conveys that it's involuntary, nothing the kids have control over, and temporary.