Anonymous
Post 01/03/2013 13:07     Subject: Re:If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:If you're comparing various FCPS high schools, in my opinion the best measure is to look at their AP Exam results. This will give you the best idea of whether the school has a lot of high achieving kids or not. FCPS publishes all this data on its website if you search through the News Releases.

http://commweb.fcps.edu/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=2127

In particular, you can see the number of kids who made AP Scholar, AP Scholar with Honor, AP Scholar with Distinctin, and National AP Scholar at each campus. There are simliar stats for IB campuses. I think this is particularly helpful info because success on AP/IB exam is not just a function of how many smart kids are at the school--it also measures the quality of the AP teaching at that campus. Even a really smart kid will struggle to get a 4/5 on an AP Exam with an ineffective teacher. You have to take into account that some high schools are smaller/larger when comparing the number of AP Scholars, but I think this is the best quantifiable measure of academic quality you are going to find in comparing high schools.


+1000

Great post!
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2013 12:54     Subject: Re:If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
If you're comparing various FCPS high schools, in my opinion the best measure is to look at their AP Exam results. This will give you the best idea of whether the school has a lot of high achieving kids or not. FCPS publishes all this data on its website if you search through the News Releases.

http://commweb.fcps.edu/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=2127

In particular, you can see the number of kids who made AP Scholar, AP Scholar with Honor, AP Scholar with Distinctin, and National AP Scholar at each campus. There are simliar stats for IB campuses. I think this is particularly helpful info because success on AP/IB exam is not just a function of how many smart kids are at the school--it also measures the quality of the AP teaching at that campus. Even a really smart kid will struggle to get a 4/5 on an AP Exam with an ineffective teacher. You have to take into account that some high schools are smaller/larger when comparing the number of AP Scholars, but I think this is the best quantifiable measure of academic quality you are going to find in comparing high schools.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2013 12:19     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Stuart has a score of 2 out of 10, big fail http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/518-Stuart-High-School/


True. greatschools.org is a Big Fail.


I keep seeing this posted repeatedly, with nothing to back up the assertion. Why is this?


Probably because greatschools.org aggregates test scores (SOL scores in Virginia) so their numerical rating is skewed.

In Fairfax County, the greatschools.org elementary schools with 9s and 10s will be AAP centers, as an example. In turn, the base schools that do not have AAP centers may have skewed lower SOL scores as their high-scoring-kids went to the AAP Center.

It is fairly difficult to untangle the AAP center kids' SOL scores from the general ed kids' SOL scores. You can do some approximation of that using above-grade-level SOL scores and the Virginia school report card data:

https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/

Anonymous
Post 01/03/2013 12:12     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Stuart has a score of 2 out of 10, big fail http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/518-Stuart-High-School/


True. greatschools.org is a Big Fail.


I keep seeing this posted repeatedly, with nothing to back up the assertion. Why is this?
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2013 13:03     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:
Stuart has a score of 2 out of 10, big fail http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/518-Stuart-High-School/


True. greatschools.org is a Big Fail.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2013 12:57     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Gotta say ... DD is at a high FARMS school (approximately 40%) and she has 15 kids in her 1st grade class. There's an upside to it, too. While there are kids there who need a lot more academic help, she is getting way more individual attention than her peers at predominantly white & asian and high SES schools in other areas (who have 20+ kids in their classes).


Small class sizes are great, but not at the expense of having a critical mass of students at or near the ability of your child. The real issue at elementary schools with high FARMs is that the teacher cannot differentiate the learning. Many of the FARMs kids are working at or below grade level. If your kid is only one of a few working above grade level, then it's not likely she will get instruction that will challenge her. Most of the resources are going to be put towards getting the below level students up to passing.

At the HS/MA levels, a concern is peer groups. Schools with a higher % FARMs students have a smaller percentage of students going to college, and only a very few going to elite colleges. Most parents would prefer their kids attend schools with a strong academic focus. Parents with higher SES have more time and resources to devote to their child's education. This affects the atmosphere of the school.


It depends on the school (re: academic focus, peer groups). JEB Stuart has one of the highest FARMS rates of any high school in the DC suburbs, yet the school boundaries include very wealthy neighborhoods around Lake Barcroft. The kids that grow up in Lake Barcroft form an academically focused peer group. In elem., middle, and high school those kids challenge themselves within their peer group and eventually attend the best private and public universities. The downside is you have a "school within a school" of a small group of highly motivated students. But for Lake Barcroft, Stuart still presents itself as a strong neighborhood high school, and students often form friendships across socioeconomic lines.


Stuart has a score of 2 out of 10, big fail http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/518-Stuart-High-School/
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2013 12:26     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:what does "FARM" stand for?


Free and Reduced Meals program www.fns.usda.gov
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2013 12:20     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
what does "FARM" stand for?
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 13:59     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:My DD is a rising kindergartner and we're looking to buy a SFH, one that we plan to remain in through H.S. - unless something unexpected happens. I just can't find much information on schools aside from demographics and SOL scores. I've been to Great Schools and Schooldigger. Most people I know in the area have young kids so all they know are the elementary schools, which by most accounts are all pretty good so that is not the issue. What I'm concerned about is MS/HS. I know administrations can change, yada yada yada, but I still have to base my decision on something don't I? I feel like for every 1 person who likes a school, there is another who dislikes it. And many times are complaints are not even relevant to me - ie: IEP's or Gifted, which may not even apply to my kid.

I am driving myself (and my husband) nuts trying to decide which "cluster" we want to be in!



Who says you can't judge based on FARMs and test scores? Those are excellent places to start.
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 13:58     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:It depends on the school (re: academic focus, peer groups). JEB Stuart has one of the highest FARMS rates of any high school in the DC suburbs, yet the school boundaries include very wealthy neighborhoods around Lake Barcroft. The kids that grow up in Lake Barcroft form an academically focused peer group. In elem., middle, and high school those kids challenge themselves within their peer group and eventually attend the best private and public universities. The downside is you have a "school within a school" of a small group of highly motivated students. But for Lake Barcroft, Stuart still presents itself as a strong neighborhood high school, and students often form friendships across socioeconomic lines.


This is great to hear. If some of these schools with higher FARMs are able to accommodate above grade level learners, then why does FCPS feel the need to change the AAP progeram so drastically? It seems like the schools are doing a good job of addressing the needs of the advanced learners. Do many students end up at TJ? It seems like the schools with higher SES have so many more students admitted? I guess if you controlled for SES, maybe the admittance rates would be similar.

It's great to hear that the students have a peer group they can identify with. I know someone with children at Edison, and this was the same situation there. The parents push their kids to take a strong AP course load, both for the work and the peer group in the classes. She described it as a school within a school.


TJ acceptance is not based on ability, but on achievement, and that achievement is often based on SES because of the programs and tutors that many families use to get their kids "TJ ready."
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 11:24     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
It depends on the school (re: academic focus, peer groups). JEB Stuart has one of the highest FARMS rates of any high school in the DC suburbs, yet the school boundaries include very wealthy neighborhoods around Lake Barcroft. The kids that grow up in Lake Barcroft form an academically focused peer group. In elem., middle, and high school those kids challenge themselves within their peer group and eventually attend the best private and public universities. The downside is you have a "school within a school" of a small group of highly motivated students. But for Lake Barcroft, Stuart still presents itself as a strong neighborhood high school, and students often form friendships across socioeconomic lines.


This is great to hear. If some of these schools with higher FARMs are able to accommodate above grade level learners, then why does FCPS feel the need to change the AAP progeram so drastically? It seems like the schools are doing a good job of addressing the needs of the advanced learners. Do many students end up at TJ? It seems like the schools with higher SES have so many more students admitted? I guess if you controlled for SES, maybe the admittance rates would be similar.

It's great to hear that the students have a peer group they can identify with. I know someone with children at Edison, and this was the same situation there. The parents push their kids to take a strong AP course load, both for the work and the peer group in the classes. She described it as a school within a school.
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 11:18     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
I also looked at the achievement gaps (how Farms/minority students perform vs rich/white kids), the smaller, the better.
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 11:04     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Gotta say ... DD is at a high FARMS school (approximately 40%) and she has 15 kids in her 1st grade class. There's an upside to it, too. While there are kids there who need a lot more academic help, she is getting way more individual attention than her peers at predominantly white & asian and high SES schools in other areas (who have 20+ kids in their classes).


Small class sizes are great, but not at the expense of having a critical mass of students at or near the ability of your child. The real issue at elementary schools with high FARMs is that the teacher cannot differentiate the learning. Many of the FARMs kids are working at or below grade level. If your kid is only one of a few working above grade level, then it's not likely she will get instruction that will challenge her. Most of the resources are going to be put towards getting the below level students up to passing.

At the HS/MA levels, a concern is peer groups. Schools with a higher % FARMs students have a smaller percentage of students going to college, and only a very few going to elite colleges. Most parents would prefer their kids attend schools with a strong academic focus. Parents with higher SES have more time and resources to devote to their child's education. This affects the atmosphere of the school.


It depends on the school (re: academic focus, peer groups). JEB Stuart has one of the highest FARMS rates of any high school in the DC suburbs, yet the school boundaries include very wealthy neighborhoods around Lake Barcroft. The kids that grow up in Lake Barcroft form an academically focused peer group. In elem., middle, and high school those kids challenge themselves within their peer group and eventually attend the best private and public universities. The downside is you have a "school within a school" of a small group of highly motivated students. But for Lake Barcroft, Stuart still presents itself as a strong neighborhood high school, and students often form friendships across socioeconomic lines.
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 11:01     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
10:57 here -- my oldest was in a classroom with several other Young Scholars in grade 1 (the principal spread the Young Scholars across the grade) and in a full-time Young Scholars classroom in grade 2. My youngest was in a full-time Young Scholars classroom for grade 2. Same school, same principal, different implementation. I am guessing the total number of students in each grade level contributed to the difference in approaches.
Anonymous
Post 01/01/2013 10:57     Subject: If I'm not supposed to judge based on FARMS and test scores, what CAN I judge on?
Anonymous wrote:In which schools is this really happening? We previously attended a higher FARMs school. DC was multiple grades ahead in math, and we were offered pull out math. It consisted of one 45 minute session once a month. This is at a school with a full time AART. We moved and switched to schools with very low FARMs, and DC was identified for level III pull outs, which were told was the same as Young Scholars, and its still only once a month. However at the new school, we get differentiated math in the class. Some sections are divided amongst all the students in the grade. For other sections, DC and a group of other students gets higher level math in class.

Young Schloars was originated for services for unrepresented minorities. If one isn't a minority can a child still receive services? We qualified, and barely received any extra help. We're thankful our budget and work commute allow for us to live in a strong pyramid. Please post the name of your high FARMs schools that has regular differentiated learning.


My children are not underepresented minorities and were in a full-time Young Scholars classroom. But each of the 76 elementary schools with Young Scholars implements it differently, and it can even differ from year to year at the same elementary school.