Why is having only 11 kids per grade bad? Couldn't that actually provide for better AAP instruction? The 11 would actually have more individualized instruction and the teachers would be better able to change up details of their instruction to cater to their strengths. I don't actually mind the idea of 1 class/section per grade. The kids would still have electives they could choose with the general ed population as long as their core classes are AAP. And there's nothing saying the MS couldn't offer different electives preferred by AAP kids than it does now and open it up to the rest of the student body.

Anonymous wrote:I really think it is the same 1 or 2 responders spouting off about critical mass over and over. I just don't understand why these responders think that providing "critical mass" is required by FCPS. An advanced curriculum could be considered necessary for the local plan for the gifted and that is provided by FCPS and will be more "local" if each MS got its own center.

FCPS fulfills its requirement to provide a local plan for the gifted by providing LLIV in elementary. Why does the same theory not apply to MS?

It's probably easy for you to say when your kids in AAP with 100+ kids. Have your kids attend AAP class with 9 kids per grade, and report back what you think then.

Anonymous wrote:
How is critical mass a myth? YOu cannot give a small group of MS students the exact same schedule and assume that they will be taking the same electives. There's one set of schools in the eastern part of the county that will have fewer than 40 and fewer than 80 students when fully populated as a MS Center. These are 6th-8th grade schools, and at two classrooms per grade, that's 180 children. While I'd like to think that you aren't talking about this in particular, let's be clear that some children will NOT receive services in the same manner as they cannot keep a group of 33 or 72 kids together for a full day and still allow their elective schedules to flow freely. There's no myth here - this plan, if implemented as written where it expands the Center program to every MS that does not have one, will introduce an additional inequity that directly affects more than a handful of children. We aren't talking about a 15 minute bus ride, or staying with your peers through the transitions, which while important, aren't deal breakers for some of us. We are talking about creating a MS center for 33 kids, 72 kids, where you have fewer than one full class per grade (again, there two are K-6). THAT'S a reason for shouting.

Agree.
The issue seems two and half folds.
1) the underpresentation of two racial groups (mainly in cluster 3/4/5/6)
2) the overcrowding of certain centers (mainly in cluster 1/2/8)
3) the commuting (which most of the parents don't mind if their kids can go to the centers they prefer)
FCPS' plan to have center in every MS, also open more centers in ES, it will help issue (2) more or less. So the plan apply to cluster 1/2/8 sounds positive.
As for issue (1), I can't see how it will help. If they lower the standard for all kids, there will be more kids into the center, but the % probably won't change much. If they do like affirmative action type, lower the standard for certain ethnic groups, that will be totally against the AAP purpose. Even worst, the small centers in clusters 3/4/5/6 will split into even small ones. Some of the centers barely have 2 AAP classes now. After the split, some will only have 1 AAP class ( ES: Belvedere, 3rd grade from 62 kids to 46 kids, 4th grade from 47 to 39, 5th grade from 40 to 27; Lorton station, 78 to 64, 65 to 54, 47 to 39,60 to 38; Springfield Estates, 113 to 38, 94 to 24, 71 to 21, 67 to 26; new Falls Church pyramid, 35/25/21/25; new Annandale pyramid, 30/15/18/9).
How can you have an effective AAP program with 9 kids in one grade? 4 vs 4 competition, with 1 tie-breaker?
I think the next step for PCPS is to stuff unqualified kids from underpresented group into the small AAP centers. So when the law suit hits, they can say they have high % of underpresented group kids in AAP. That will probably mitigate issue (1) on the surface, but definitely sacrifice all the true AAP students in those clusters, as they will be drag down by non-AAP students in their AAP class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone sum in a sentence what this is about? AAP center at Thoreau MS?

Add an AAP center to Thoreau Middle School. Currently, those kids attend Luther Jackson, and most of the families from Louise Archer ES would prefer the go to Thoreau. That is about 110 kids per grade.

Sounds like a great idea to me. I hope it goes through.

Anonymous wrote:Could someone sum in a sentence what this is about? AAP center at Thoreau MS?

Add an AAP center to Thoreau Middle School. Currently, those kids attend Luther Jackson, and most of the families from Louise Archer ES would prefer the go to Thoreau. That is about 110 kids per grade.

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand why these responders think that providing "critical mass" is required by FCPS.

Have you seen the FCPS presentation? It is posted online on the FCPS website: http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/centers/reorg/index.shtml

On slide 9:

– Use of Readiness Checklist to ensure high quality program
• Highly qualified teachers with level IV training
• Critical mass of students identified for Level IV services
• School plan for Level IV services & extracurricular activities (e.g., Math Counts, Science Olympiad etc.)
• Facility readiness
• Transportation

Anonymous wrote:But the question is, what constitutes critical mass? 11 Kids/grade (Poe) no....150 kids per grade? Yes. Both Jackson and Thoreau will have over 100 kids/grade, which should be fine.

Much of the problems with the proposal can be done by implementing it gradually. The crowding issues are critical at three centers: Archer, Haycock and Hunter Woods. And add Thoreau at MS. That can be year one.

Year two: I do not know the optimal strategy for implementation.

I agree -- who creates the definition and what are the terms? I also agree that a phased approach is something for the School Board to consider.

I hope the School Board provides more opportunities for community input. Many parents in my area did not know about the proposal and were unable to attend a meeting last week.

Could someone sum in a sentence what this is about? AAP center at Thoreau MS?

I really think it is the same 1 or 2 responders spouting off about critical mass over and over. I just don't understand why these responders think that providing "critical mass" is required by FCPS. An advanced curriculum could be considered necessary for the local plan for the gifted and that is provided by FCPS and will be more "local" if each MS got its own center.

FCPS fulfills its requirement to provide a local plan for the gifted by providing LLIV in elementary. Why does the same theory not apply to MS?

But the question is, what constitutes critical mass? 11 Kids/grade (Poe) no....150 kids per grade? Yes. Both Jackson and Thoreau will have over 100 kids/grade, which should be fine.

Much of the problems with the proposal can be done by implementing it gradually. The crowding issues are critical at three centers: Archer, Haycock and Hunter Woods. And add Thoreau at MS. That can be year one.

Year two: I do not know the optimal strategy for implementation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The AAP students for both Luther Jackson and Thoreau will lose out if they split into two centers. Luther Jackson will be going from 3 AAP teams to 2 or possibly 1.5 teams. Luther Jackson will lose 1/3 of its AAP students. To have a successful AAP Center, you will need at least 2 teams. The more the better. Look at other big successful AAP Centers like Longfellow, Kilmer, Rachel Carson, etc... Again you need the CRITICAL MASS. I don't get the arguments of proximity to the kids' home. Most AAP kids want to travel long distance to go to Thomas Jefferson HS for more peers and better programs. Why would Thoreau kids not want to form bigger center with more peers and strong programs? Luther Jackson sent 22 kids to TJ last year and 19 kids the year before. And the number will keep on increasing if Luther Jackson will not split up!

Lulz, the CRITICAL MASS crowd has resorted to SHOUTING because believing the myth is VERY IMPORTANT!

How is critical mass a myth? YOu cannot give a small group of MS students the exact same schedule and assume that they will be taking the same electives. There's one set of schools in the eastern part of the county that will have fewer than 40 and fewer than 80 students when fully populated as a MS Center. These are 6th-8th grade schools, and at two classrooms per grade, that's 180 children. While I'd like to think that you aren't talking about this in particular, let's be clear that some children will NOT receive services in the same manner as they cannot keep a group of 33 or 72 kids together for a full day and still allow their elective schedules to flow freely. There's no myth here - this plan, if implemented as written where it expands the Center program to every MS that does not have one, will introduce an additional inequity that directly affects more than a handful of children. We aren't talking about a 15 minute bus ride, or staying with your peers through the transitions, which while important, aren't deal breakers for some of us. We are talking about creating a MS center for 33 kids, 72 kids, where you have fewer than one full class per grade (again, there two are K-6). THAT'S a reason for shouting.

Anonymous wrote:Lulz, the CRITICAL MASS crowd has resorted to SHOUTING because believing the myth is VERY IMPORTANT!

I know. It is such a myth that FCPS used it in their own presentation at the Community meetings last week.

Anonymous wrote:The AAP students for both Luther Jackson and Thoreau will lose out if they split into two centers. Luther Jackson will be going from 3 AAP teams to 2 or possibly 1.5 teams. Luther Jackson will lose 1/3 of its AAP students. To have a successful AAP Center, you will need at least 2 teams. The more the better. Look at other big successful AAP Centers like Longfellow, Kilmer, Rachel Carson, etc... Again you need the CRITICAL MASS. I don't get the arguments of proximity to the kids' home. Most AAP kids want to travel long distance to go to Thomas Jefferson HS for more peers and better programs. Why would Thoreau kids not want to form bigger center with more peers and strong programs? Luther Jackson sent 22 kids to TJ last year and 19 kids the year before. And the number will keep on increasing if Luther Jackson will not split up!

Lulz, the CRITICAL MASS crowd has resorted to SHOUTING because believing the myth is VERY IMPORTANT!

PP: Most AAP kids are kids. They do not want to spend 15-20 minutes each way extra in busses. The kids typically are less concerned about the peers than the parents. As a parent of a Louise Archer student, I welcome the concept of AAP at Thoreau for two reasons, both related to proximity: 1) about 1/3 of the rising 7th graders choose Thoreau over Jackson because of a variety of reasons, and 2) My DD's friends will not get split between the two schools, as all will go to Thoreau.

My biggest fear in MS is that, with the restructuring of the peer group caused by moving from one school to another, she might end up in a crowd that is less supportive. Currently, she gets a lot of peer pressure to succeed. I want that to continue.

Having the AAP students stay together from ES to MS will keep the peer groups together. With luck, they will not feel lost in MS.

As for TJ, assuming all kids come from AAP, only 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 go there. So at most 1 in 5 make (or are faced with) the decision for the longer commute. In my case, we are walking distance from a perfectly respectable HS (Madison), with strong community ties. The primary advantage of TJ is the enhanced peer group. A Madison kid can get a similar education, but they have to push.

The reason why TJ is so good is they take the best of the students. If those kids wee dispersed among the various HS, they would still be among the best at the HS.

The AAP students for both Luther Jackson and Thoreau will lose out if they split into two centers. Luther Jackson will be going from 3 AAP teams to 2 or possibly 1.5 teams. Luther Jackson will lose 1/3 of its AAP students. To have a successful AAP Center, you will need at least 2 teams. The more the better. Look at other big successful AAP Centers like Longfellow, Kilmer, Rachel Carson, etc... Again you need the CRITICAL MASS. I don't get the arguments of proximity to the kids' home. Most AAP kids want to travel long distance to go to Thomas Jefferson HS for more peers and better programs. Why would Thoreau kids not want to form bigger center with more peers and strong programs? Luther Jackson sent 22 kids to TJ last year and 19 kids the year before. And the number will keep on increasing if Luther Jackson will not split up!