Affirmative action has benefitted white, rich, preppies for well over a century...still does today. In those days, African-Americans need not apply regardless of ability.

I don't follow your post. I am not trying to be snarky. Would you mind further explaining what you mean?


Romnesia: How soon we all forget the days when women or Blacks were not admitted to the Ivies regardless of ability...those days lasted 2 centuries! Admission was based on affirmative action for the whites, landed gentry, clergy and prepped schooled. The "gentlemen's C" club (e.g, modern day George Bush and John Kerry)

Affirmative action has a long, long tradition.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, crap. DD is screwed -- she's half white, half Asian, so she'll have to get a perfect 2400 on her SATs to get into a state school, huh?

No. Just change her first name to a traditionally male sounding name in high school and mark the "white" race box on the application.

You are making programs like affirmative action look bad, so please remove the huge chip on you shoulder.

It looks like all of us here are for affirmative action -- as long as it serves people who are genuinely disadvantaged. However, please reflect that unthinking posts like this, which are written out of hostility and not actual facts (for example, several posters have pointed out that some non-white races get an advantage of a few hundred SAT points) are hurting the cause of affirmative action.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But there are a lot of ingredients to *success* besides hard work, such as:
- willingness to take risks,
- thinking outside the box, and
- good social skills

- willingness to take risks: translation - always have families to fall back on => advantage, rich white people
- thinking outside the box: translation - always have families to worry about "inside the box" for you => advantage, rich white people
- good social skills: translation - always have family ties to build on the 'social skills' => advantage, rich white people

no, it's not about which races have which qualities.

- willingness to take risks: translation - I am poor and have nothing to lose and nowhere to go but up => advantage, all of us less priveleged folks who pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps, out of poverty through education, never giving up, and never believing we only deserved what was at the bottom
- thinking outside the box: translation - We have spent a lifetime having to do things differently, because we did not have much, were the children of immigrants, lived in poverty, etc., so we know that the "normal" path is not the only path to success => advantage, smart poor people and immigrants
- good social skills: translation - have a natural understanding and empathy towards others, know that being upper class does not mean that you have class, able to treat everyone, from the poorest to the richest with dignity and respect, face life with good humor => advantage, people who are blessed with a good sense of self, awareness of life, and high EQ

Rich/white is irrelevant if you have these qualities.

Anonymous wrote:Well, crap. DD is screwed -- she's half white, half Asian, so she'll have to get a perfect 2400 on her SATs to get into a state school, huh?

No. Just change her first name to a traditionally male sounding name in high school and mark the "white" race box on the application.

Well, crap. DD is screwed -- she's half white, half Asian, so she'll have to get a perfect 2400 on her SATs to get into a state school, huh?

I agree that there should be income-based affirmative action, pp. That makes so much more sense, and leaves less fodder for racists who want to claim that certain people are not actually qualified for certain positions...

"Studies have shown that, today, being a white girl or an Asian of any color is actually a disadvantage, in the sense that you need SATs that are several 100 points higher than other applicants. "

For Asians it is worse than for whites and that was the focus of the NY Times article this weekend - the pressure in NY to junk the test for competitive HSs since "too many" Asians are winning those slots compared to the city's demographics. I think that's crap. I think affirmative action is 100% needed based on INCOME (since rich people have a built in advantage by being able to afford tutors, test prep, not having to wor, etc) but there is no reason to discriminate among poor people/immigrants of different racial classes simply because "too many" of one racial group are doing well compared to oethers. Perhaps they can serve as an example to others .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can white African-Americans benefit from affirmative action?

Huh? Do you mean people from North Africa, or white South Africans? People from the Middle East and North Africa are considered Caucasian, and are therefore "white" and white people from South Africa are also white.

Maybe PP means someone like Obama or maybe someone who is AA but looks white.

For colleges, you can claim to be AA if you are 1/4 AA, that is, if you have one AA grandparent out of 4 grandparents. We know several white-looking National Achievement Scholars--one even has dirty blond hair. Another has prominent parents, a privileged background, and very fair skin. I have no clue how the colleges respond to this when they actually meet the kid, although my sense is that colleges are happy as long as they can report higher diversity statistics.

But maybe PP means "affirmative action" in the sense that white kids used to get into Ivy League universities fairly automatically. Studies have shown that, today, being a white girl or an Asian of any color is actually a disadvantage, in the sense that you need SATs that are several 100 points higher than other applicants. For preferences like athletic recruitment, I'm not sure how race is a factor overall, although it's true that some sports that require lots of money, like fencing or crew or equestrian events, are predominantly white. Because legacy preferences are still operative, being white is still an advantage because most legacies are still white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can white African-Americans benefit from affirmative action?

Huh? Do you mean people from North Africa, or white South Africans? People from the Middle East and North Africa are considered Caucasian, and are therefore "white" and white people from South Africa are also white.

Maybe PP means someone like Obama or maybe someone who is AA but looks white.

Anonymous wrote:Can white African-Americans benefit from affirmative action?

Huh? Do you mean people from North Africa, or white South Africans? People from the Middle East and North Africa are considered Caucasian, and are therefore "white" and white people from South Africa are also white.

Anonymous wrote:Affrimative action has benefitted white, rich, preppies for well over a century...still does today. In those days, African-Americans need not apply regardless of ability.

I don't follow your post. I am not trying to be snarky. Would you mind further explaining what you mean?

Affrimative action has benefitted white, rich, preppies for well over a century...still does today. In those days, African-Americans need not apply regardless of ability.

Can white African-Americans benefit from affirmative action?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But there are a lot of ingredients to *success* besides hard work, such as:

- willingness to take risks,
- thinking outside the box, and
- good social skills

- willingness to take risks: translation - always have families to fall back on => advantage, rich white people
- thinking outside the box: translation - always have families to worry about "inside the box" for you => advantage, rich white people
- good social skills: translation - always have family ties to build on the 'social skills' => advantage, rich white people

no, it's not about which races have which qualities.

Racism is alive and well.

ITA. I'm totally for affirmative action, if that's what the first PP thinks she's arguing for. Affirmative action is great when it helps kids who come from families who can't afford to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, who can't help them with the algebra and english homework. But the sort of general whining above, especially when it doesn't make much sense, hurts instead of helps the cause of affirmative action.

Ooops, I meant the second PP. The SECOND PP makes no sense and is hurting whatever argument she thinks she's supporting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But there are a lot of ingredients to *success* besides hard work, such as:

- willingness to take risks,
- thinking outside the box, and
- good social skills

- willingness to take risks: translation - always have families to fall back on => advantage, rich white people
- thinking outside the box: translation - always have families to worry about "inside the box" for you => advantage, rich white people
- good social skills: translation - always have family ties to build on the 'social skills' => advantage, rich white people

no, it's not about which races have which qualities.

Racism is alive and well.

ITA. I'm totally for affirmative action, if that's what the first PP thinks she's arguing for. Affirmative action is great when it helps kids who come from families who can't afford to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, who can't help them with the algebra and english homework. But the sort of general whining above, especially when it doesn't make much sense, hurts instead of helps the cause of affirmative action.