I had an roct scholarship. Guess I am lazy.

Charitable giving is not enough by any stretch. The total for everything is about $290 billion. 1/3 of that is religious, and most of that goes to support the operating cost of local churches. #2 is education and most of that is foundations of large universities and private high schools.

So when you whittle away at charitable giving, an incredibly small amount actually goes to the poor. And that's why religious organizations end up providing a large percentage of their services with federal funds.

If taxes were lowered, I am extremely doubtful that the money would go dollar for dollar back to private charities. I do not think we have seen upticks in charitable giving during any tax cuts.

My conclusion from all of this is that charitable giving is insufficient to meet reasonable social goals on poverty and health.

DH and I have a combined HHI of over $500k/yr. The amount that we pay in taxes is close to $175000 a year....


Which doesn't usually bother me, as I'm a firm believer in social services, supporting government to support people, ,etc. But it certainly does when I realize that I pay more in taxes than peopel who make 10x more than I make, and they sit around judging people who need the social safety it provides. I don't even think the US does a particularly good job of providing for its citizens compared to some countries (certainly not in healthcare), but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Telling people to take personal responsibility or to rely on their churches (!?!?) is just....mind numbingly ignorant. But I guess you can be that way when you have hundreds of millions squirreled away in offshore accounts.

Anonymous wrote:I am not now, but I was for the past 5 years.

The last 3, I was working full-time, but I'm single with a kid and I was making less than $25K. Last year, I was unemployed for 3mo due to a move and I made $18K total. I got everything back, plus the EITC. The money helped me pay off debt and get back on my feet.

I also qualified for daycare assistance, WIC and my son qualified for Medicaid his 1st year and CHIP until I got my current job. I qualified for Medicaid during my pregnancy and immediately afterwards. Then I went 2yrs without insurance, which I'm paying for now as I left things untreated (mainly my teeth).

I'm white, raised in an UMC family, and I have a BA. I also made the mistake of marrying a deadbeat, although I wised up when DC was 8mo and divorced him. We lived in a very conservative area where jobs were scarce and didn't pay well.

In the past 18mo, I've more than doubled my income and I'll be paying income tax this year. I have no problem paying, I'm grateful there was a safety net and help when I needed it and I hope that others are able to get that hand-up that I received. I'll be voting for Obama in Nov.

I applaud you taking responsibility for your life! And making a better life for you and your child. I am so glad we live in a country where a pregnant woman gets medicaid. Good for you PP!

Anonymous wrote:My mom is receiving Social Security after retiring and my dad and FIL are receiving unemployment after losing their jobs in the past year. My BIL's kids were on WIC and Medicaid for a while.

I don't think either of us has personally been in this "hated group." But I've been trying to figure out - does this include folks who get money back at tax time because their deductions, exemptions, etc erase tax liability? Because a LOT of families, even at higher than the poverty level, fall into that category - they do pay some small amount in their paycheck, but get it back and then some come refund time.

Yes, if the end they received all the whithheld money back in a federal refund check.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe you should have made better decisions with who you married and decided to have a child with.

Maybe you should rethink how you judge others

oh, snap, pp!

Daughter is working hard for minimum wage while on leave from college. Mother-in-Law lives on Social Security and Medicare. Brother just broke his back, got laid off from job, and is applying for disability.

What a bunch of deadbeats!

They worked hard their whole lives and Romney tells his rich buddies that he can't teach them personal responsibility! Just breathtakingingly stupid on Romney's part.

Anonymous wrote: I would truly like to hear Romney's response to the story above. If he heard it personally, I'm sure he would sympathize and go out of his way to help. But in the abstract, I think he'd say "She should have gone to her parents and church for help." But we don't all have parents or a church ready to give what's needed. Nor is that any less dependent a situation.

The "wrong decision" response is unfortunately widespread among those who lack the empathy to say "There but for ..." and to understand what that means.

This needs to be highlighted.
My parents and my church DID help. There's no way I could have afforded a lawyer on my own. My parents helped pay for my divorce and made sure that DC and I were safe. They stepped in when my car was about to be repo'ed (no public transportation in the area, so no car=no job). They helped with utility payments when XH stopped paying CS. They gave me a place to live when I was able to move. My church helped with Xmas presents and food (WIC only covered DC's food). But my parents couldn't 100% support me, they have their own obligations and I have siblings still at home. And my church was in the same depressed, low-income area I was in. Many of my fellow parishoners were in similar situations, on a fixed income or worse off than me. How can I ask for help when I know the person next to me is struggling too?

I'm one of the lucky ones. I had people in my support system who were able and willing to help. Not everyone has that. There are people who work harder and are much smarter than me who can't pull themselves up because they don't have any help aside from what they receive from the government. Success comes from being in the right place in the right time and knowing the right people too, it's not 100% just hard work.

Anonymous wrote:
That's the fundamental problem with our society we should be building up our church, and family support networks and not be reliant on the government. I think it's a cultural issue.

I agree that it is a cultural issue, but not in the way that you are framing it. Depending on churches and other private institutions leads to a type of tribalism. Private organizations can discriminate. If you are not the right religion, you might not get assistance. Or, if you choose not to follow the particular customs of the organization involved, you might not get assistance. For example, American citizens are not able to get legal medical procedures at hospitals associated with particular religious organizations even if they are willing to pay for them. What hope would they have of getting those procedures if they don't have money? It is generally the most marginalized members of society who need assistance most. Such individuals should not suffer more because of cultural differences with private assistance organizations. Churches are fine as supplemental support organizations, but should not be the primary or only source of assistance.

Church is there to shame people, not help

Anonymous wrote: I would truly like to hear Romney's response to the story above. If he heard it personally, I'm sure he would sympathize and go out of his way to help. But in the abstract, I think he'd say "She should have gone to her parents and church for help." But we don't all have parents or a church ready to give what's needed. Nor is that any less dependent a situation.

The "wrong decision" response is unfortunately widespread among those who lack the empathy to say "There but for ..." and to understand what that means.

That's the fundamental problem with our society we should be building up our church, and family support networks and not be reliant on the government. I think it's a cultural issue.

I would truly like to hear Romney's response to the story above. If he heard it personally, I'm sure he would sympathize and go out of his way to help. But in the abstract, I think he'd say "She should have gone to her parents and church for help." But we don't all have parents or a church ready to give what's needed. Nor is that any less dependent a situation.

The "wrong decision" response is unfortunately widespread among those who lack the empathy to say "There but for ..." and to understand what that means.

it's so funny that people go on about the shaming game when Mitt's family did the exact same thing you did - used government assistance to get back on their feet. But you're the idiot because you didn't become a multi millionaire...

Honestly, it takes guts to do what you did - it is hard, especially when a child is involved. YOU are why we have these programs, and why we need them. Don't let some asshole shame you for doing right by your child and working your ass off to make a better life for yourself. Good luck to you and your child in the future!

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe you should have made better decisions with who you married and decided to have a child with.

Maybe you should rethink how you judge others

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not now, but I was for the past 5 years.

The last 3, I was working full-time, but I'm single with a kid and I was making less than $25K. Last year, I was unemployed for 3mo due to a move and I made $18K total. I got everything back, plus the EITC. The money helped me pay off debt and get back on my feet.

I also qualified for daycare assistance, WIC and my son qualified for Medicaid his 1st year and CHIP until I got my current job. I qualified for Medicaid during my pregnancy and immediately afterwards. Then I went 2yrs without insurance, which I'm paying for now as I left things untreated (mainly my teeth).

I'm white, raised in an UMC family, and I have a BA. I also made the mistake of marrying a deadbeat, although I wised up when DC was 8mo and divorced him. We lived in a very conservative area where jobs were scarce and didn't pay well.

In the past 18mo, I've more than doubled my income and I'll be paying income tax this year. I have no problem paying, I'm grateful there was a safety net and help when I needed it and I hope that others are able to get that hand-up that I received. I'll be voting for Obama in Nov.

Maybe you should have made better decisions with who you married and decided to have a child with.

Sure. Let me just go hop in that time machine I've got in the closet and fix that.

People make mistakes and stupid decisions. Mine resulted in a kid and $20K of legal debt. I'm not whining about it or playing the victim, I took the help I qualified for and used it to fix my mistake and make a better life for myself and my child.

Attitudes like yours are why people like me give up. When all you hear is "well you shouldn't have done that in the first place, you idiot. You deserve what you get" it's really discouraging. When you're working your ass off to make ends meet and all you get is shaming, it's demoralizing. It's humiliating to apply for GA and admit that you can't afford to feed your kid without help, trust me, I don't need any help with feeling shame and guilt. A little compassion would go a long way. How about you take a second and thank your lucky stars that none of your poor decisions had lifelong consequences?