A second problem is that kids are hearing "we want to see you take the most challenging courses you can" from the colleges. We did a college tour last spring, and we heard this same message over and over from both the top and 2nd tier schools.

This really depends on what you consider a second tier school. There is a HUGE range of colleges and universities in this country--ranging from Harvard to schools that take 90% of their applicants (literally thousands of undergraduate schools). For competitive schools, you need a competitive application which means taking challenging classes and doing well in them. If you take easier classes or have worse grades, you apply to less selective schools. Like, maybe apply to third tier schools if you don't want to put the work in to take the hard classes. In my experience, there is usually a college for everyone. If you are concerned with getting into a school with "name recognition" then you might need to take APs. There will always be some kid who is more motivated than yours who doesn't crack under the pressure of 15 APs. And that's just life, some of us are smarter/better at dealing with pressure/more successful than others.

That being said, most colleges look at applications holistically, so it's probably not as dire as people on this board are making it out to be to not take APs.

Anonymous wrote:guys....really? 16 APs between sophomore and senior year...it's not that bad..got 4s on 5 of them, 5s on 11 of them...honestly, if you don't procrastinate and are passionate, then it's not bad. if the parents are forcing the kids to take the class, expect disaster. my parents did not force me at all, and i chose to take 16 APs in three years, and it was worth it!

That's crazy. My kid has taken 10 and that's more than enough. How do you even take 16 and get your elective and other non AP requirements done?

Anonymous wrote:guys....really? 16 APs between sophomore and senior year...it's not that bad..got 4s on 5 of them, 5s on 11 of them...honestly, if you don't procrastinate and are passionate, then it's not bad. if the parents are forcing the kids to take the class, expect disaster. my parents did not force me at all, and i chose to take 16 APs in three years, and it was worth it!

How old are you? Why are you on this forum? Did taking that many APs make you a nerd? Are you socially awkward? As an adult - do you have friends? A healthy relationship with your GF/BF/SO?

guys....really? 16 APs between sophomore and senior year...it's not that bad..got 4s on 5 of them, 5s on 11 of them...honestly, if you don't procrastinate and are passionate, then it's not bad. if the parents are forcing the kids to take the class, expect disaster. my parents did not force me at all, and i chose to take 16 APs in three years, and it was worth it!

I agree that Brown and other top schools do a great job of making alums feel valued.

^^I worked on Brown's admission commitee for a couple of years and don't agree. Maybe the small liberal arts colleges aren't interested in alum input on applications, just public relations services, but some of the Ivies are. For better or worse, Brown takes the highest percentage of legacy kids in the Ivy League (close to 1/3, Harvard is down to around 20%), so is obviously more alum-minded than some other highly competitive colleges/universities. I come from W. Massachusetts, where the term "Little Ivy" for Williams and Amherst has been used for generations.

What I observed in my work was that alum interivews could swing a decision, but only in borderline cases. If Brown really wanted a kid, e.g. a Siemens prize winner or finalist, admissions officers would ignore the relevant on-line report. If they weren't so sure, they'd read the report carefully. And I agree that doing work demonstrating academic wattage outside a high school's standard offerings can boost a kid's chances. Top colleges are looking for strong signs of intellectual curiosity and promise beyond grades and scores. Taking an AP test or two after self prep, and being able to explain why in an interview, is a really good idea.

SLAC = selective liberal arts colleges, including Williams, Bowdoin, Amherst Swarthmore, and others -- none of which I've ever heard referred to as "Little Ivies". In fact, though the top SLACs are as strong academically as the Ivies, they offer a very different type of experience and would not welcome the diminutive comparison. You might be thinking of the Little 3 -- a historical reference to the atheletic competition among Williams, Amherst and Wesley, dating back to the early 20th Century. Later these schools joined with other New England SLACs to form the NESCAC conference.

And, yes, I'm familiar with the alum interviewer report forms, and yes, I'm of the opinion, based on my professional experience, that the interviews are informational only.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a former admissions officer and graduate of a top SLAC, and I have gone through the admissions process with my 3 oldest children. I'm always a little amused by the posts on this forum from alum interviewers who purport to be so savvy and influential w/re to admissions. Interviews at virtually all selective colleges and universities --including all Ivy League schools -- are not evaluative, but strictly informational. Moreover, an alum interviewer will usually do just a handful of interviews in his/her area, so will have seen a very tiny piece of the admissions puzzle. I would treat their comments with a liberal seasoning of salt.

SLAC?

OK, but I've interviewed as many as a dozen kids for my Ivy some years, between Oct. and Feb., and have yet to see one I advised against taking admitted, including entitled sounding legacy kids who probably looked great on paper. A decade of experience has taught that what I certainly can't do is get kids in. I have no idea why many terrific seeming MoCo kids with boatloads of 5s on APs (low-SES minority, top athletes, kids with 2 perfect SAT scores etc.) get rejected.

Strictly informational is what the college brochures say about alum interviews, yet we're asked highly evaluative questions via on-line forms. I don't see a kid's scores, and we talk mainly about extra-curriculars, which, in my book includes AP tests taken outside a curriculum. I've seen homeschooled kids take 8 or 9 AP tests and get in.

Little Ivies are Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, maybe Bowdoin. East coast liberal arts colleges as tough to get into as Ivies.

I'm a former admissions officer and graduate of a top SLAC, and I have gone through the admissions process with my 3 oldest children. I'm always a little amused by the posts on this forum from alum interviewers who purport to be so savvy and influential w/re to admissions. Interviews at virtually all selective colleges and universities --including all Ivy League schools -- are not evaluative, but strictly informational. Moreover, an alum interviewer will usually do just a handful of interviews in his/her area, so will have seen a very tiny piece of the admissions puzzle. I would treat their comments with a liberal seasoning of salt.

Anonymous wrote:+1. I also interview in MoCo (for a Little Ivy) and have noticed the same trends. The applicant's enthusiasm counts for a lot in my books, so taking the initiative to do extra APs on one's own always impresses me, helping a kid get a strong alum write-up.

Do you look at the act of taking APs, the grades received in the classes, or the scores received, or some combination of these? Do have any impression about which of these your college admissions committee looks at? Thanks! I'm a parent trying to scope all this out.K

Anonymous wrote:+1. I also interview in MoCo (for a Little Ivy) and have noticed the same trends. The applicant's enthusiasm counts for a lot in my books, so taking the initiative to do extra APs on one's own always impresses me, helping a kid get a strong alum write-up.

The term "Ivy" generally refers to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Darmouth, Cornell, or Columbia; which colleges/universities does the term "Little Ivy" refer to?

+1. I also interview in MoCo (for a Little Ivy) and have noticed the same trends. The applicant's enthusiasm counts for a lot in my books, so taking the initiative to do extra APs on one's own always impresses me, helping a kid get a strong alum write-up.

Taking 8-10 AP tests and scoring all 4s and 5s isn't necessarily as tough as it sounds, as long as parents and a kid approach the excercise strategically. I say this because my DC took several AP exams without taking the pertinent classes (at Blair) as prep - he prepared on his own over winter and spring break junior year, and got 4s and 5s on the "extra" exams.

There's overlap with some of the humanities AP tests that a kid can use to his/her advantage in preparing. We found enough overlap between, for example, US Govt. and Politics and US History for him to ace the former while taking an AP US History class. Same with US History and World History, quite a bit of overlap, and World History and European History.

Not sure that I agree with posters who think that grades matter more than AP test results. It seems to me that highly competitive schools give them equal weight, with a high score or grade practically obviating the corresponding score or grade if the latter is lower.

I interview MoCo applicants for my Ivy and have rarely seen a kid who took double digit AP exams with all 4s and 5s rejected outright, generally that sort of kid at least makes a WL. And I've seen plenty of Sidwell, Maret, NCS, St. Albans etc. kids who took 5-6 exams rejected, including those with at least one perfect SAT score. Top suburban public school have an edge in Ivy and Little Ivy admissions.

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by second tier. In any case, I agree with PPs who have said that the single most consistent statement you hear from college admissions officers is "we want to see that you have taken the most challenging courses your high school offers."

So are the APs becoming a new, stealth, college admissions test, in addition to the SATs and SAT IIs? "Stealth" because colleges don't require them. Yet the kids we know who went to HYP from our public sent in their 5s. If they're helpful for the top schools, however, I doubt it's necessary (yet?) for the 2nd tier schools.