Anonymous wrote:And I just as strongly disagree that women should have to suffer their trials in private to avoid offending delicate ears.

Shaming is the best kind of social control, and a woman scorned should not be censured for claiming full access to it's power to fight back against the fuckers of 21 year old secretaries.

I don't think anyone is talking about "not offending delicate ears." In Elizabeth's situation, I think she had a choice to live out the rest of her life being bitter, resentful, scorned wife, or concentrate on her children and what's left of her life loving the ones she gave life to. I think what she chose was MUCH harder than "letting him have it" and that exhibited grace in my book. Most of those delicate ears just want to have something to talk about and really don't care how you are.

I think some PP's are confusing posts about kindness, not gossiping, and handling one's family "affairs" privately, as being weak. To the contrary I think this exhibits strength. It's so much easier to return spite with spite, to trash someone (cheating husband, vicious MIL etc.) all over your neighborhood, what have you. It's harder to take the high road. It doesn't mean roll over and take it. It means do what you have to do but with some class. That to me is a characteristic of grace.

Just one poster thinking it sounds Southern. Sorry-- not intending to sock puppet, just submitting one thought at a time.

And I just as strongly disagree that women should have to suffer their trials in private to avoid offending delicate ears.

Shaming is the best kind of social control, and a woman scorned should not be censured for claiming full access to it's power to fight back against the fuckers of 21 year old secretaries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

The first situation, the plane crash one, that does not exhibit grace. That exhibits selflessness.

In the second situation, grace would not necessarily mean standing by the man who betrayed you. It means not going around blabbing and bitching about it to everyone who will listen. It means moving on stoically with respect for your children, if you have them, by not spreading around the details of your husband's failure as a man and/or husband. You don't have to deny that anything was wrong or stand by him to be graceful. But if someone I knew was cheated on and she comported herself as if she was above it all, and putting on a good poker face for her kids, and refusing to get down and dirty by putting her marriage on blast to the public, or being petty for the sake of being petty, I would consider THAT graceful.

Maybe husbands would behave better if they knew their failures as men were as up for public scrutiny as their wives' "manners" apparently are. Just be sure you're not asking women to behave with more "grace" than men.

What's a masculine "grace"? All the examples have been of women keeping their troubles to themselves, bless their little gracious hearts.

I'm that PP- I wouldn't suggest keeping it to yourself from everyone. Your sister, mom, totally fine. Your neighbors and coworkers? Do not need to know that you are divorcing because your husband was caught fucking a 21 year old secretary at work and when he was supposed to be out of town on business he was in Miami with her. Or whatever. Launching into the bitter victimized hag routine - bashing the husband, bashing the mistress, issuing warnings and edicts to other women- is what makes someone look graceless; admitting you're divorcing and it's difficult but you'll get through just fine, thanks for the concern, is graceful.

However, I see that you and a couple other PPs think this is a very Southern attitude- could be true. I'm from the South, so maybe this is just my interpretation of behaving with grace- and yours could be totally different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

The first situation, the plane crash one, that does not exhibit grace. That exhibits selflessness.

In the second situation, grace would not necessarily mean standing by the man who betrayed you. It means not going around blabbing and bitching about it to everyone who will listen. It means moving on stoically with respect for your children, if you have them, by not spreading around the details of your husband's failure as a man and/or husband. You don't have to deny that anything was wrong or stand by him to be graceful. But if someone I knew was cheated on and she comported herself as if she was above it all, and putting on a good poker face for her kids, and refusing to get down and dirty by putting her marriage on blast to the public, or being petty for the sake of being petty, I would consider THAT graceful.

Maybe husbands would behave better if they knew their failures as men were as up for public scrutiny as their wives' "manners" apparently are. Just be sure you're not asking women to behave with more "grace" than men.

What's a masculine "grace"? All the examples have been of women keeping their troubles to themselves, bless their little gracious hearts.

I'm that PP- I wouldn't suggest keeping it to yourself from everyone. Your sister, mom, totally fine. Your neighbors and coworkers? Do not need to know that you are divorcing because your husband was caught fucking a 21 year old secretary at work and when he was supposed to be out of town on business he was in Miami with her. Or whatever. Launching into the bitter victimized hag routine - bashing the husband, bashing the mistress, issuing warnings and edicts to other women- is what makes someone look graceless; admitting you're divorcing and it's difficult but you'll get through just fine, thanks for the concern, is graceful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

The first situation, the plane crash one, that does not exhibit grace. That exhibits selflessness.

In the second situation, grace would not necessarily mean standing by the man who betrayed you. It means not going around blabbing and bitching about it to everyone who will listen. It means moving on stoically with respect for your children, if you have them, by not spreading around the details of your husband's failure as a man and/or husband. You don't have to deny that anything was wrong or stand by him to be graceful. But if someone I knew was cheated on and she comported herself as if she was above it all, and putting on a good poker face for her kids, and refusing to get down and dirty by putting her marriage on blast to the public, or being petty for the sake of being petty, I would consider THAT graceful.

Maybe husbands would behave better if they knew their failures as men were as up for public scrutiny as their wives' "manners" apparently are. Just be sure you're not asking women to behave with more "grace" than men.

What's a masculine "grace"? All the examples have been of women keeping their troubles to themselves, bless their little gracious hearts.

Anonymous wrote:Grace is giving to others what they don't deserve - kind of the opposite of justice. It is being kind in the face of unkindness. It doesn't mean doormat to me, just the attitude of grace.

Why would you do this unless you've been socialized that nice girls don't speak up? That's still what I'm hearing, although you're cloaking this in something that sounds like Christian-ish piety.

Mmmm.... no. Still sounds like a Southern socially-required self-denial thing to me. (Shrugs.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

I don't think she pretended that he has done nothing wrong at all. She showed everyone how strong she was and that his affair/s didn't take anything away from her. It made him look that much smaller.

Perfectly stated.

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

The first situation, the plane crash one, that does not exhibit grace. That exhibits selflessness.

In the second situation, grace would not necessarily mean standing by the man who betrayed you. It means not going around blabbing and bitching about it to everyone who will listen. It means moving on stoically with respect for your children, if you have them, by not spreading around the details of your husband's failure as a man and/or husband. You don't have to deny that anything was wrong or stand by him to be graceful. But if someone I knew was cheated on and she comported herself as if she was above it all, and putting on a good poker face for her kids, and refusing to get down and dirty by putting her marriage on blast to the public, or being petty for the sake of being petty, I would consider THAT graceful.

Grace is giving to others what they don't deserve - kind of the opposite of justice. It is being kind in the face of unkindness. It doesn't mean doormat to me, just the attitude of grace.

5:52 and 10:43 get it. It is not the norm in this area, unfortunately. Knowing when to say when and back off; choosing your battles; not using others/being needy/being a taker/being draining; begin resourceful and willing to share; not feigning ignorance when you are clearly in the wrong (admitting it); willing to say you are sorry when you have clearly wronged someone; being friendly (not hot and cold); not attaching your "wealth" to "things" (knowing it is spiritual - not religious, but spiritual); knowing how to be happy inside and able to be happy for others; not showing contempt or making faces (like a small child - show more depth than that!), not being judgmental.....

There are many facets to this OP. Suffice it to say it is how you are raised. If you are truly content, successful and educated, you show manners and respect. Being nice is not taken for being a doormat (a favorite D.C. past time). If you meet top leaders, they will have a charisma in person because they know how to be graceful.

In short, having the capacity to and executing taking the high road. Not gossiping and not seeking gossip are a huge part of this, as the PPs pointed out. Not pretending you are "so busy", when in reality, you just don't have a handle on things and it shows. Knowing how to have endurance and responsibility. Owning what is yours.

Often, people with self depreciating humor and humility are graceful (they have inward perspective and ownership), but there are not too many who realize this! GL in your spiritual journey, OP. Good on you for realizing this!

Which "she" do you mean?

Anonymous wrote:I still just don't get this discussion.

I see how, if you're locked in a struggle for survival after your plane goes down on a desert island, and you offer your last sip of clean water to a sick child, there's a certain dignity in that.

I don't see why it's especially "graceful" to stand by your man if he has betrayed you. You don't need to make public statements about his assholery (though I don't have a problem with this, myself, especially if public opinion has some kind of power to enforce accountability), but I don't see any virtue in actively pretending he has done nothing wrong.

I don't think she pretended that he has done nothing wrong at all. She showed everyone how strong she was and that his affair/s didn't take anything away from her. It made him look that much smaller.