9:34, you're probably right that ADHD kids lag in social development and learning empathy. I mentioned if this is the case with our current psychiatrist who responded to me with, "Well even a three year old has better control of his impulses than your eight year old does right now." The current psych said he didn't show enough remorse for his actions but she said she honestly doesn't know what disorder or condition he has.

21:46 if it's not too much to ask, can you please share what your brother did? I truly want to try to gather as much information as possible to see what the future may hold for him, good or bad. THe more information I can get, the better. I would really appreciate it.

13:22, we just increased his dosage. He's at the highest dosage for his current meds. If it doesn't work, we'll have to change the meds.

Have to say that DS is very non aggressive generaly. When I mentioned to my uncle (who is an adult psychiatrist) that DS was pulling the dogs tail or squeezing the baby's arm too hard, he said that's not aggression or a predictor of violence in the future because that's rooted in sensory craving, not a desire to inflict injury or pain.

what about changing the meds?

OP, I applaud you for being so proactive about your son. My parents weren't proactive at all with my older brother. I don't know if it would have made a difference or not in his case, but I like to think it might have.

I remember sensing something was very wrong with my older brother - I have specific memories, once when I was three, and the other time when I was four (he was seven and eight, respectively). Of course, there really was something very, very wrong with him. He lived a destructive life and when he died an early death recently it was a relief knowing that he wouldn't hurt anybody else any more. Sad, but also a great relief.

I want to believe all children are good but my experience growing up with a brother who was so spectacularly destructive from an early age makes me think that there's a physiological element that might prevent some children from normal development if there's no intervention.

OP,
I wouldn't make it a moral issue per se. I think that kids with ADHD and sensory issues tend to be distracted for want of a better word and don't pay as much attention to others, plus he by definition has impulse control issues. Empathy is developed and kids with ADHD tend to lag quite a bit in social development. If you think of him as being more like 4 in some ways it might help. Be super clear and concrete and keep asking him what he thinks things feel like for others. He might not get it until he is much older. I wouldn't leave him alone with the baby and have clear and direct consequences every time. I think if you can work with a psychologist who works with kids with ADHD they can give you some strategies. Medication may make him more available to learn things, it's not an immediate fix for most kids. Hang in there.

17:17, what is a CBT therapist?

21:50, thank you for taking the time to write about your life a bit. It truly does help me at least...to see things from your eye's, how you felt, what you thought at different times of your life. It sounds like you had a classic case of ADHD. It causes low self esteem with some children. It sounds like the stealing might have been due to low self esteem and some impulse control problems. I'm no psychiatrist but thats what it probably was. BUT - I'm glad you turned your life around and that you love your job and have learned to be more empathetic. Your family must be so happy for you now.

But my son may have deeper issues. I truly thinks he has underdeveloped conscience. Combine this with his ADHD and sensory issues and it creates hell. For example, he doesn't show that much caring or love for others around him. He rarely shows it even to us, his parents. I have an infant daughter and he sometimes squeezes her arm too tight on purpose just to see if she's strong enough to resist it. He pulled the neighbor's dog's tail just to see what the dog would do and that dog ended up biting him. When I had my four day old baby in the stroller at the hospital, it was a sunny day and so she shut her eyes to protect herself from the bright sun. My eight year old son tried to pry her eyes open using both his hands. Thank God I happened to see that and was able to stop him.

I asked him why he would do things like that to his baby sister and he said, "Because I know she can tattle on me."

So while this looks like a separate issue from stealing and lying, maybe it really isn't. Maybe his stealing and lying are because he doesn't really care about the people who he steals from. He truly doesn't care how they feel about losing their belongings. Or he cares more about his needs than theirs.

We've seen three psychiatrists and not one has been able to pinpoint what his problem is and what we can do about it.

He's been on ADHD meds for over a month now and we've seen no difference. So we're worried. I wish I could find a psychiatrist who understands his problem.

Maybe get a CBT therapist. Teach him, "Just because I have an impulse doesn't mean I have to act on it." I agree with doing the allowance thing. There are workbooks on impulse control that teach some basic concept of impulsivity. Impulse control is not something that is built overnight...it is neurological. I don't have experience with these exact issues but I agree with not giving major attention to it. Can you do a reward system: for each day you don't get a report of stealing or lying, he gets a point and after earning x number of point (say 5 in 6 days) he gets a reward. Don't give major attention to transgressions, only to the absence of them. I also agree with giving allowance, and maybe buying him a special gift to celebrate something positive so he has more control over acquiring a few special things and feeling good about himself...(i.e. teach him that there are positive ways of going about acquiring things, within reason of course).

[quote=Anonymous]PP this is OP again. At what age did you feel maturity set in for you? Was there anything anyone said to actually help you become introspective or reflective about your behavior?

If you don't mind me asking, do you feel somewhat more immature in comparison to your peers even today? In what way?

And forgive me if this offends you, I don't mean to offend, just trying to see into the future with my DS...how did you do in high school, college, or at your jobs? Any issues there?

[/quote]

Hi OP, it's PP - I just saw your post.

It's hard for me to wrap my brain around my childhood - I feel like I am a totally different person now, though of course I'm not and those experience are a big part of me. I remember that I was always in trouble because I wouldn't open my books and study if the work was in any way challenging to me or didn't come easy - I would space out in class, daydream or write notes to my friends. My parents joked that every birthday was difficult - I was always grounded or in some kind of crisis at school. I was bright and creative and my teachers saw my potential, so they gave me a lot of rope - I remember one teacher in particular hit a brick wall in his attempts to get me to study the course material and allowed my to write about my idol at the time, Molly Ringwald, for extra credit. I had lots of issues, going beyond stealing and grades - too complicated to go into all of it here.

By the time I got to high school, something had shifted - I was still under-performing in classes that didn't hold my interest, but doing quite well in classes I enjoyed, and I cobbled together a decent grade point average. I became very interested and involved in a particular (arts) program at school, and as I mentioned in my prior post, I do think it saved me a** (even more than therapy, family meetings, tutors, etc). I LOVED it so much, I had a tough mentor who expected a lot of me and I rose to the challenge - and I got a lot of positive feedback, I was good at it. I was able to go to a very good college through the arts program, but on academic probation (which was eventually lifted).

I always felt like I "shed" my old self once I got to college (though again, of course I didn't completely). Perhaps this is because I was studying what I loved and found my niche - I had always been able to excel in areas of interest. By the time I was in college (and later grad school) I couldn't even imagine neglecting to hand in a major exam or refusing to crack open a text book (as I did often in high school) - really couldn't and still can't fathom it. I can't fathom stealing anything and everything I could get my hands on, but it was me, I did it.

So it's really hard for me to pinpoint exactly when I matured - it was a gradual process. Once I left the school where I was bullied (5th grade) I was never bullied again and have had very good, long-standing friendships. To answer your question, I don't think I'm less mature than my peers - I do have my insecurities, but that is not one of them. I think the challenges I dealt with have made me more empathic, open-minded and less judgmental of others. And I met many people like myself in the arts program I attended in college, which was great.

But as I said, my childhood self didn't disappear. I do have my insecurities - there are huge gaps in my knowledge-base...things that most people know from school that I just missed because I was "out to lunch"! I am often self-conscious and while I have high self-esteem in certain respects, it is low in others. I am a people-pleaser - it really pains me to feel like an outsider in a group of people...it must bring up old memories. I truly thought I was "over" my childhood issues until I had a SN kid and it brought up lots of old stuff.
I still avoid things that don't come easily...I get intimidated. BUT, all in all I a solid, law-abiding citizen. I'm now in my early 40's and have done well in my chosen field, which requires a great deal of communication, interaction and empathy, as it turns out.

I realize that your son's experience is different than mine so I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, but I guess what it boils down to is this... when I see my own DD struggle I remember that I put myself and my parents through so much and worried the he** out of them for many, many years, and I came out the other side. I wonder if your son found something that he really loves and has a passion for, if it would help him the way it helped me. Regardless, I guess I'm trying to say that yes, just because your son is engaging in these troubling behaviors now doesn't mean that he will do this forever.

Good luck to you, OP.

PP this is OP again. At what age did you feel maturity set in for you? Was there anything anyone said to actually help you become introspective or reflective about your behavior?

If you don't mind me asking, do you feel somewhat more immature in comparison to your peers even today? In what way?

And forgive me if this offends you, I don't mean to offend, just trying to see into the future with my DS...how did you do in high school, college, or at your jobs? Any issues there?

OP, this is the PP who regularly stole - I definitely would have stoken those larger items if I had the opportunity.
And I wasn't a bad kid - just very impulsive.

OP again. I will try the allowance idea. Right now I'm just really scared for him. Thank you all.

I agree with PP about an allowance. I was a thief as a young child, 4-6 yrs old. I stole money from purses and people's pockets for comic books and candy mostly. Was a very precocious, academically advanced child who had no problems at school.

I habitually stole money out of my piano teacher's purse while I was suppose to be practicing. Stole from my parents and any adults who left their purses, coats, etc. around. Lied without blinking an eye. Eventually got caught by my mother and the piano teacher and stopped seemingly although I kept going through my mom's purse/coat until I was 10.

There's hope, OP. I grew up to be a law abiding citizen without a record although I am a lawyer - not criminal law - and have never been indicted for anything

Like the PP, suggested. Help him learn to control himself and his impulses. Some children need more help than others.

Intelligence has nothing to do with impulse control. Impulse control comes from maturity and experience, not intelligence. You are talking about two different parts of cognitive development.

I doubt your child "premeditates" these thefts to the degree you are imagining.

Part of learning to interrupt the pattern of impulses is learning to substitute a more long-range desire. Even interrupting the pattern for five seconds and calming down with thoughts of something else. Part of the reason to give him an allowance is to learn what it feels like to have long-term gratification rather than instant gratification and impulsive thievery.

Since he wants things so badly, what does this child have? Can you help him take stock? Can you start him on a small, reasonable allowance. He should be able to do some impulse buying every week, and some long term planning for things he wants. That is part of breaking this pattern.

PP, this is OP again. Thank you for your note. It gives me a little hope. The things you stole were small items. But my son has stolen an iPod from another child's backpack. He stole a teacher's flashdrive that contained hundreds of dollars worth of downloaded books and other things on it. He did this TWICE btw. My son is also very cognitively advanced. With very little effort he gets excellent grades in school even though he has been placed in the most difficult groups. So I wonder if he's so smart why can't he have better control of himself? I know it's an ignorant thing to say but I really don't understand.

To the previous PP, no he doesn't get an allowance. We could start giving him one but if it means waiting to save up money to buy an iPod for himself, he says he can get more immediate gratification by stealing it. He says he knows it's wrong but wants those items so badly and wants it immediately.

While I have no direct advice, I can tell you that I stole things regularly as a young child - stickers from friends and bunkmates, candy and toys from school, doritoes from friends' lunchboxes, gum from teachers' purses, items from neighbors' homes...even ice cream out of neighbors' extra freezers in their garage. I understood that stealing was wrong and tried to hide my misdeeds but rarely worried about how my behavior impacted others. I also really struggled in school (at least in classes that didn't interest me and was bullied from 3rd-4th grades. I repeated third
grade. With all if that, I never received a diagnosis (this was the 70's). I'm sure I had/have ADD but at the time nobody
knew how to help me.
As far as the stealing was concerned, when I finally got
caught by my father I was so humiliated I never did it
again, but this was after years of it. I found my niche in the
world - it took me finding an activity that I loved and
challenged me and it really saved my a**. I grew up to be a law-abiding, if anything over-empathic, solid citizen.just to let you know that things can turn around. I wasn't a bad person, I was just very impulsive and immature.