Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know of any college that requires the taking of APs (in part because not every school offers AP courses). They require the SAT II tests (and generally only about 2-3), and the APs are optional; if there is duplication that is because students choose to take the APs.

This should be obvious. No, not every high school offers AP classes. But competitive colleges want to see that a kid has taken the "most rigorous/challenging" classes in his/her school. If the high school offers AP calculus in addition to honors calculus, then the kid who wants to go to a competitive college takes AP Calculus AB or B/C. This is how many kids who apply to competitive colleges end up taking both AP Calculus test and an SAT math subject test.

Sorry to be short, but you seem to be playing dumb.

And you seem to be whining. (Read the dispatch from Asia, above, for a great description of a real pressure cooker of an educational atmosphere.) Why it is some tragedy (or even a problem of the most minor variety) that kids who CHOOSE to take the AP while pursuing admission to the most selective colleges will also take an SAT subject test in the same subject? They don't have to study new material. They just spend three additional hours, about four weeks later, torn away from Facebook/YouTube to take the test.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know of any college that requires the taking of APs (in part because not every school offers AP courses). They require the SAT II tests (and generally only about 2-3), and the APs are optional; if there is duplication that is because students choose to take the APs.

This should be obvious. No, not every high school offers AP classes. But competitive colleges want to see that a kid has taken the "most rigorous/challenging" classes in his/her school. If the high school offers AP calculus in addition to honors calculus, then the kid who wants to go to a competitive college takes AP Calculus AB or B/C. This is how many kids who apply to competitive colleges end up taking both AP Calculus test and an SAT math subject test.

Sorry to be short, but you seem to be playing dumb.

Not the pp, but why dumb? Why not just accept the AP or the SAT II score? It's not that hard. Most every college has figured out how to accept SAT or ACT or no score at all. Why are colleges playing dumb?

I think we're making the same point. I was referring to the disingenuous statement that "APs aren't required unless the kid wants to take them." But as a practical matter, APs are effectively required if (a) the school offers APs, and (b) your kid wants to go to a competitive college. Competitive colleges all say they want kids who challenge themselves with the hardest courses. So, if your kid faces a choice between honors Calc and AP Calc, and your kid wants to get into a competitive college, then your kid basically has to take AP Calc. And that's how so many kids end up taking both the AP test and the SAT II test. I agree, why can't colleges accept APs in lieu of SAT subject tests, for kids who have done APs.

While I agree that the double testing is annoying there are a couple of mitigating factors. First, AP scores are not actually requested by colleges until after you are accepted. They typically aren't part of the application but are used for placement purposes. Second, you don't get scores from senior year APs until well after the school year is over. So if you take AP Calc senior year you'd still need to take the SAT math test earlier. Third, SAT 2's aren't actually required by that many colleges anymore, although obviously still by the most competitive colleges. I believe only 1 still requires 3 SAT 2s.

As for the value of AP classes - it is not just about college admissions. At our school they tend to be classes with smart engaged teachers and students. So they are good classes even if there is some teaching to the test (which frankly isn't that bad even in public school).

Anonymous wrote:

The colleges don't get money from the testing regime. And while a college may know many schools in a given area they are not familiar with all of them. How well do you think a school like Cal Berkeley or UCLA knows Holton or Stone Ridge? The tests help with comparisons.

The point is, why can't Cal Berkely compare Holton to Stone Ridge based on the AP scores, if these are already available? Why can't Cal Berkeley say, "If you are already submitting two AP test results, then we will use these in place of two SAT subject test results. But if you don't have AP results, then you need the SAT subject tests." And as another PP said, the AP test in a subject like World History is probably a lot harder than the SAT World History subject test anyway. Colleges already do this for the ACT -- both Vassar and Columbia say "if you are taking the ACT with writing, then you don't need the SAT subject tests."

To the person who keeps talking about Americans and tests, no, I am not worried that my little snowflake can't handle another test - snowflake will have done 9 APs by the time snowflake graduates. In addition to the PSAT and SAT, and possibly the ACT.

It just seems wasteful. These are extra hoops that cost more money and time but provide no additional information that isn't already available if a kid has taken AP tests.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I kind of get this but most colleges assign regions to their admissions officers who get to know the schools very, very well. They don't compare kids from different schools, they look at applicants within the context of their current school. So maybe if there was an outlier from a school that is new on the radar but this is a long way to go for that reason.

All that money you are paying for the tests? Thats the reason. This is a big business.

The colleges don't get money from the testing regime. And while a college may know many schools in a given area they are not familiar with all of them. How well do you think a school like Cal Berkeley or UCLA knows Holton or Stone Ridge? The tests help with comparisons.

I think the admissions officers from Cal and UCLA assigned to the DC region know those schools extremely well. I was at a college night at my DC's private and the admissions officer from USC was there, and he not only knew the school but was familiar with specific courses. And I never said the colleges make the money. Its the testing services, the organizations that create and own the tests, that make out like bandits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know of any college that requires the taking of APs (in part because not every school offers AP courses). They require the SAT II tests (and generally only about 2-3), and the APs are optional; if there is duplication that is because students choose to take the APs.

This should be obvious. No, not every high school offers AP classes. But competitive colleges want to see that a kid has taken the "most rigorous/challenging" classes in his/her school. If the high school offers AP calculus in addition to honors calculus, then the kid who wants to go to a competitive college takes AP Calculus AB or B/C. This is how many kids who apply to competitive colleges end up taking both AP Calculus test and an SAT math subject test.

Sorry to be short, but you seem to be playing dumb.

Not the pp, but why dumb? Why not just accept the AP or the SAT II score? It's not that hard. Most every college has figured out how to accept SAT or ACT or no score at all. Why are colleges playing dumb?

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know of any college that requires the taking of APs (in part because not every school offers AP courses). They require the SAT II tests (and generally only about 2-3), and the APs are optional; if there is duplication that is because students choose to take the APs.

This should be obvious. No, not every high school offers AP classes. But competitive colleges want to see that a kid has taken the "most rigorous/challenging" classes in his/her school. If the high school offers AP calculus in addition to honors calculus, then the kid who wants to go to a competitive college takes AP Calculus AB or B/C. This is how many kids who apply to competitive colleges end up taking both AP Calculus test and an SAT math subject test.

Sorry to be short, but you seem to be playing dumb.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I do get the SAT II for kids who aren't in AP for whatever reason, and I can see how it's useful for comparing kids from different schools. My gripe is with the colleges who are already getting the APs but also want the SAT II subject tests in the same subjects.

And re the ginormous tests in Asia, that does sound awful. But do they have to take it twice? That's my issue here. US kids take lots of tests, doing SAT prep, then PSATS, then the regular SATs maybe multiple times, then 8-9 APs or the IB -- all of this adds up to lots of testing for US kids. I'm not against testing per se, but I'm against duplicative testing. FWIW, DD took her first AP last year and got a 5, so does think the subject tests will be a cakewalk after the APs. It just seems like a waste of time, because it's not giving colleges anything they don't already have for kids who are submitting AP scores, and this is what makes me think, with the other PP, that it's a big money racket. That's all.

I live in Asia. MY kids attend an international (meaning english) school with about 85 - 90% asians. From what I have observed, about 12 or more hours/day is spent in school related stuff. Here's an outline of a typical day, 8-4pm is spent in class with my kids, the primary focus of this time in the parents mind is for their kids to learn and become comfortable with the english language. From 4pm until about 10 or 11pm the focus is on academics - math, science, music, computer, more english, and now chinese as well. You can earn $50 or more/hour tutoring kids in english. If there are any sports, it is usually swimming, which is done between 6 and 8 am. Kids are typically up by 5:30 am. On the weekends, Saturdays are spent either in school or in all day tutoring. One parent told me recently, a tutoring center is asking her for $4k/month to teach her child the SAT just on the weekends all day. He is in 10th grade. She will send him to California next year to live with relatives in order to start preparing to enter UCLA. There are a lot of social pressure to follow this format, it is an ingrained system. It is also big business for the tutoring companies with big lobby firms. The upper middle class and the wealthy spends an outrageous amount of money on their kids. Close to $30k on day(international) school and thousands more in the evenings for tutoring. I don't see how American parents can keep up unless you're willing to give up most sports and commit 12 or more hours a day on strict academics. Western kids try to keep up because they don't want to be the butts of the class. But generally, most western kids go through shock during their first year in the system, for, although the school is international with a western curriculum, the culture of the school/class is very much local because of the high local population. I also find class instruction is moved at a faster pace because the local kids come already knowing the subject from studying it with a tutor. It is a pressure cooker, the western kids fight like hell to keep up. We try to find time for the kids to socialize and do sport.

Lately, I've heard freaked out whispers as the US university system a lot of these kids are destined for are starting to require sports as well as academics and music. I do not know how some of these parents are going to fit in sports with the time constraints. Often too, the schools don't always have the facilities/coaches needed to develop good athletes. I think it's a sacrifice for academics, but if the Ivies requires sports now too, they'll figure out a way. BTW, they are very good musicians by 6 grade as well.

As for us, we are glad for our experiences. It has open our eyes. We've had 5 years of living here. By the time our kids are back in the US for school. The pressures will be a breeze for them because nothing will compare to the pressures we've experienced in the school system here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I do get the SAT II for kids who aren't in AP for whatever reason, and I can see how it's useful for comparing kids from different schools. My gripe is with the colleges who are already getting the APs but also want the SAT II subject tests in the same subjects.

And re the ginormous tests in Asia, that does sound awful. But do they have to take it twice? That's my issue here. US kids take lots of tests, doing SAT prep, then PSATS, then the regular SATs maybe multiple times, then 8-9 APs or the IB -- all of this adds up to lots of testing for US kids. I'm not against testing per se, but I'm against duplicative testing. FWIW, DD took her first AP last year and got a 5, so does think the subject tests will be a cakewalk after the APs. It just seems like a waste of time, because it's not giving colleges anything they don't already have for kids who are submitting AP scores, and this is what makes me think, with the other PP, that it's a big money racket. That's all.

I don't know of any college that requires the taking of APs (in part because not every school offers AP courses). They require the SAT II tests (and generally only about 2-3), and the APs are optional; if there is duplication that is because students choose to take the APs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I kind of get this but most colleges assign regions to their admissions officers who get to know the schools very, very well. They don't compare kids from different schools, they look at applicants within the context of their current school. So maybe if there was an outlier from a school that is new on the radar but this is a long way to go for that reason.

All that money you are paying for the tests? Thats the reason. This is a big business.

The colleges don't get money from the testing regime. And while a college may know many schools in a given area they are not familiar with all of them. How well do you think a school like Cal Berkeley or UCLA knows Holton or Stone Ridge? The tests help with comparisons.

I do get the SAT II for kids who aren't in AP for whatever reason, and I can see how it's useful for comparing kids from different schools. My gripe is with the colleges who are already getting the APs but also want the SAT II subject tests in the same subjects. . . . I'm not against testing per se, but I'm against duplicative testing. FWIW, DD took her first AP last year and got a 5, so does think the subject tests will be a cakewalk after the APs. It just seems like a waste of time, because it's not giving colleges anything they don't already have for kids who are submitting AP scores, and this is what makes me think, with the other PP, that it's a big money racket. That's all.

Agree 100% and don't get why colleges continue to require such redundancy. Curious that a greater number of other colleges (albeit not top tier colleges) are going test optional--where no standardized tests are required.

Anonymous wrote:25 years ago I got a year's worth of college credit at my Big Ten school with my AP scores. I was able to graduate in 3 years. Huge financial benefit as I was paying for school myself. Interesting that schools aren't giving as many credits anymore.

Actually, I think kids could do that today if they wanted. From the ones I have talked to, they use the advanced standing/credit to double major or take a lighter load or take more time/courses to determine their major, to spend more time abroad, etc. None have been interested in finishing college in 3 years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I do get the SAT II for kids who aren't in AP for whatever reason, and I can see how it's useful for comparing kids from different schools. My gripe is with the colleges who are already getting the APs but also want the SAT II subject tests in the same subjects.

And re the ginormous tests in Asia, that does sound awful. But do they have to take it twice? That's my issue here. US kids take lots of tests, doing SAT prep, then PSATS, then the regular SATs maybe multiple times, then 8-9 APs or the IB -- all of this adds up to lots of testing for US kids. I'm not against testing per se, but I'm against duplicative testing. FWIW, DD took her first AP last year and got a 5, so does think the subject tests will be a cakewalk after the APs. It just seems like a waste of time, because it's not giving colleges anything they don't already have for kids who are submitting AP scores, and this is what makes me think, with the other PP, that it's a big money racket. That's all.

Oops, PP here. I meant to say he placed out due to 5's on various AP exams.