Anonymous wrote:OP: Is the child 8 years old or 18 months? You refer to both in your original post.

To repeat: the child is 8 now, but has been dressed in boys clothes since she outgrew onesies( her Mom has bought boys clothes only since she was 1-2 years old) Her hair has been cut in crew cuts since she was about 5 or 6

OP: Is the child 8 years old or 18 months? You refer to both in your original post.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, because girls have to wear girl colors to be girly enough girls. :roll:

That wooshing sound? It's the point going over your head.

OP here. Yes, of course, the clothes don't make the woman( duh) , but we are not talking about a fully developed woman. We are talking about a flat chested little girl with a crew cut. Even the voice is neutral as this is a pre-pubescent child.( no clues there)Out in the world among strangers most will need to guess the right personal pronoun to use (he or she) with very little to go on and very little time: the visual cues are hair cut, clothes, etc. My question is : why would a parent take this as a sign that her daughter is gay when she has obviously set up all the visual cues herself.

I am not gay , but have some gay friends and always assumed that they would be more open to and more defending of a child's right to be who they are because , I assume, it was difficult for them growing up in a time different than today to come out . I would assume anyone who went through that would want to support their child whoever they were and not project an identity onto them. After all, this is what most of my gay friends complained happened to them in their less than supportive homes as children. So, I am mystified as to why my friend seems to have a clear preference from day one, dressing her child a certain way and projecting on to her some gender identity conflict that , imho, does not exist apart from the way the child is being "set up" to appear as a boy to others. I have heard my friend use comments like "score one for the team"( lesbian team, I assume) and "breaders" used derogatively towards heteros by my friend and was surprised because, you know, thought gay people would be more open minded in general due to life experience . not less. But don't know. So, I pose the question to this forum assuming there are other two Mom couples out there who have some insight based on more personal experience than I could possibly have as I am not gay. Thanks

So is the lesbo conceding to the fact that in order to be a lesbo you must be groomed or directed to be one and not be born one?

HUH ? Above poster: please do NOT refer to my friend as a "lesbo" if you use the term to denigrate. I am seeking information from a more informed community so that I can be more prepared to respond to my friends queries in the future. I posted this to get information from an informed group: lesbians( this is the proper forum for that, no?) In anay case, I think the whole world knows that one is born gay. period. Please do not try to hijack this thread. Thank you

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:she is trying to force her screwed up lifestyle on her offspring and is surprised by the results?

Not the OP, but "screwed up lifestyle" is offensive. I don't agree with the way this mom is behaving, but I don't see it as any worse than any other parent forcing any other gender extremity on children.

perhaps it is slightly different than dressing a girl in girly dresses because , in that case, the child still appears as a girl to others and who then relate to her as a girl and reinforce to her that she is a girl. In this case however, dressing a girl like a boy and cutting her hair has resulted in this child who is a girl getting reinforcement from adults and her peer group of other children that she is a boy. A powerful thing in the life of a child, no? Seems a little to potent for a child who is still a child and whose self-concept is very much being formed. No?

I think people are ALWAYS focused in our their kids. Before I had kids, I used to make fun of people with kids because all they did was talk about their kids. Today, a friend made fun of me for showing a picture of my DD and going on and on about it.

Maybe she's got gender issues. Maybe she doesn't, but the point is - what ever we do to our kids (right now my daughter is wearing a princess dress) they reach a point usually around 12 or 13, where THEY decide how they are going to dress and THEY decide who they are going to like.

Do you thnk your friends parents made her a lesbian? Probably not. My brother was called "she" for the first 10 years of his life because my mother never cut his hair. He grew up fine.

There are worse problems then these.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, because girls have to wear girl colors to be girly enough girls. :roll:

That wooshing sound? It's the point going over your head.

OP here. Yes, of course, the clothes don't make the woman( duh) , but we are not talking about a fully developed woman. We are talking about a flat chested little girl with a crew cut. Even the voice is neutral as this is a pre-pubescent child.( no clues there)Out in the world among strangers most will need to guess the right personal pronoun to use (he or she) with very little to go on and very little time: the visual cues are hair cut, clothes, etc. My question is : why would a parent take this as a sign that her daughter is gay when she has obviously set up all the visual cues herself.

I am not gay , but have some gay friends and always assumed that they would be more open to and more defending of a child's right to be who they are because , I assume, it was difficult for them growing up in a time different than today to come out . I would assume anyone who went through that would want to support their child whoever they were and not project an identity onto them. After all, this is what most of my gay friends complained happened to them in their less than supportive homes as children. So, I am mystified as to why my friend seems to have a clear preference from day one, dressing her child a certain way and projecting on to her some gender identity conflict that , imho, does not exist apart from the way the child is being "set up" to appear as a boy to others. I have heard my friend use comments like "score one for the team"( lesbian team, I assume) and "breaders" used derogatively towards heteros by my friend and was surprised because, you know, thought gay people would be more open minded in general due to life experience . not less. But don't know. So, I pose the question to this forum assuming there are other two Mom couples out there who have some insight based on more personal experience than I could possibly have as I am not gay. Thanks

So is the lesbo conceding to the fact that in order to be a lesbo you must be groomed or directed to be one and not be born one?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

I hope all my kids will grow up to be straight. Not because I wouldn't love them if they were gay, but because I think it's a harder life if you are gay. In the same way, I hoped my kids would be right handed, not because I wouldn't love them if they were lefties, but because I think life is easier when you can use the scissors made for 90% of the population.

A majority of gayness is caused by sexual abuse or dysfunctional unstable family backgrounds. You shouldn't have to worry about them being gay unless you have the prior issues.

Sigh. No, it's NOT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

I hope all my kids will grow up to be straight. Not because I wouldn't love them if they were gay, but because I think it's a harder life if you are gay. In the same way, I hoped my kids would be right handed, not because I wouldn't love them if they were lefties, but because I think life is easier when you can use the scissors made for 90% of the population.

A majority of gayness is caused by sexual abuse or dysfunctional unstable family backgrounds. You shouldn't have to worry about them being gay unless you have the prior issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

I hope all my kids will grow up to be straight. Not because I wouldn't love them if they were gay, but because I think it's a harder life if you are gay. In the same way, I hoped my kids would be right handed, not because I wouldn't love them if they were lefties, but because I think life is easier when you can use the scissors made for 90% of the population.

oooooh , Sarah Jessica Parker said that line in a movie and it did NOT go well for her at the family dinner after that...

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

OP here. I agree with above poster( 8 seems a bit premature to be trying to settle the question of sexuality) My only hope is that I'll be good at supporting whoever my DC is when we get there. I do want to caution though in that I don't know for sure that my friend is "hoping" that her daughter will identify as gay . I did not want to flat out ask her as I have said many times on this thread, I am a heterosexual and as such there is much I do not know about the very personal experience of discovering that your sexuality is homosexual or the challenges of coming out. I don't want to ask an unsensitive and uninformed question. However, I only see what I see, which is that my friend has bought only boys clothes since her daughter was a toddler and keeps her hair very short and now reads A LOT into other peoples attribution of male gender to her daughter , as in the comments that I have shared," see, he thought she was a boy too"...and.... "I think that there is something about her that makes them all think that" To me , it is OBVIOUS that it is the clothes and hair, but my friend seems to resist this. My question , and it is for the lesbian members of this forum to hopefully share: what do THEY think of this? Can the lesbian community out there, particularly those who identify as "butch" chime in here? Can you share your experience with these issues ? I ask because I am trying to be a good friend , but don't know what to say to my friend when she repeatedly asks me seems the road ahead is a loaded one.

BTW, it is well beyond reacting to comments about appearance. My friend is convinced that her 8 year old has a "crush" on a girl in her class when to me it sounds like typical popular girl syndrome. She has commented on how her daughter prefers gender neutral bathrooms and on and on... don't want to post too many specific details here, but trust me, it is WAY beyond just comments guessing the child's sex.

AS I said in multiple posts, this is a good friend and I am trying to understand, but I am not a lesbian , let alone one who identifies as "butch" so I am at a loss as how to weigh in and I am being asked to repeatedly. For example, " did you see THAT , that guy just called her he" " Why do you think , people think that?" HELP

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

I hope all my kids will grow up to be straight. Not because I wouldn't love them if they were gay, but because I think it's a harder life if you are gay. In the same way, I hoped my kids would be right handed, not because I wouldn't love them if they were lefties, but because I think life is easier when you can use the scissors made for 90% of the population.

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

I think it's a little bit weird to do it so overtly as this mom is doing it, but I can think of plenty of times when we say things about our daughter that assume she will be straight. Examples:

the joke-not-a-joke pact I made with my best friend after the anatomy screen that my DD will marry her DS
referring to any of her male friends as "boyfriends"
any reference to "lock up your sons"

They're innocent remarks for the most part, but they do assume a certain straight, married future that may or may not come to pass, just like this little girl may or may not join the lesbian team or whatever her mom says now.

Like I said, I think there are a lot of reasons to want your child to be like you - the known is familiar, easier to relate to people who are like us, easier to understand your child's issues later if you shared them, etc. - and I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with wanting that. When you attempt to force it, though, it becomes non-normal and I don't think it's right.

I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk

I feel like it is a little odd for a parent to have a "hope" either way about a child's sexuality when the child is very young. I have an almost 3 year old that loves the color pink, playing with dolls, and mostly plays with little girls (as opposed to boys). Maybe he will be straight, and these are just his preferences. That's fine. Maybe he will be gay. That's fine too. It is just hard to imagine any sexuality associated with him at this point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm the 11:03 poster. For full disclosure, I'm a straight woman, married to a man, with a 20 month old daughter. I have a lot of gay friends, some with kids, some without.

I think it's pretty normal parenting behavior to want your children to be like you. In my experience with the lesbian community (not super recent and not in this area), referring to straight people with kids as breeders is not uncommon and not always intended to be offensive. I don't see this mom's hopes for a gay child to be any different than a straight mom's hope for a straight child, and there are any number of ways that a parent can wish that without sounding like a jerk. I think that this is all NORMAL. I don't think that the way this mom is manifesting those wants is healthy for the child, though. I agree with you that it would be lovely if she was more open to her child figuring out her own identity and becoming who she wants to be, rather than who her mom wants her to be. I think that it's a little bit naive to assume that your friend is automatically more open to all lifestyle choices because hers is "alternative." I've met some lesbians who are militantly anti-man and some people of color who hate white people. Prejudice is everywhere. Being discriminated against does not preclude that you will discriminate against someone else, for something else, in the future, as sad as that is.

Agree with that. But the OP's point is, I think, that when strangers meet a young child, they make gender assumptions based on clothes and haircut, for the simple reason that there's nothing else to go on. So the friend is acting irrationally by getting upset that strangers see her kid wearign a crew-cut and "boy's clothes" and think she's a boy. And she piggybacking on that her belief (hope) that the strangers "sense" that her daughter is gay daughter - some sort of advanced gaydar - when in reality, they think 5 yo + crewcut + jeans, sneakers and t-shirt = boy. (Perfectly reasonable, by the way.) The real question is whether the friend's issues - whatever they may be - are goinng to harm the kid. It's way too early to determine that, in my opinion.

Oh, I got the OP's point. I think that it's clear that this mom has her own issues associated with assumptions about gender and it sounds like she is trying to challenge other people's assumptions about gender pre-emptively. It also sounds to me like she assumes there are slights where there are none. Half the time, when strangers are asking you about your child, they're just being polite. Like you said, they see short hair, jeans, sneaks and a tshirt and they assume "boy". Those "Oh how old is your son?" or "His shoes are so cute, where did you get them?" are not intended to ascribe a hetero-normative identity to this child. They're just making conversation, the way that strangers do.

If this was my friend, I would try to talk to her about it, but it doesn't sound like that would make too much of a difference. If it's just about clothes and hair right now, that's not the end of the world, but if later, it turns into "you have to play softball" "but Mom, I want to join the cheerleading squad" or some other totally-from-a-tv-special drama, I would be more concerned. Like the other PP said, next time I was around for one of these "strangers assigning gender to my child incorrectly" moments, I would probably say, "well, most of the little boys on this playground are wearing the exact same thing as your daughter, I can see why a total stranger would be confused" and laugh it off. If she wants to make a big thing about it, she will and there probably isn't much to be done about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, because girls have to wear girl colors to be girly enough girls.

That wooshing sound? It's the point going over your head.

I don't know. Yes, I think OP's friend is ridiculous for getting so upset about people mistaking her kid for a boy. But assuming anyone's gender makes me a little squicky--the same way assuming race, age, or religion does--in this day and age, so I try not to do it.

It's why I try to ask "How old is your child?" instead of "How old is your son/daughter?" Then the answering person usually gives you the correct pronoun in your answer and everybody moves on without an issue.

Seriously? If you saw a kid with a crewcut, jeans and a t-shirt on, you'd consciously make yourself say "How old is your child?" instead of "How old is he?" You're squishy about assuming the gender of a 5 yo? OK, I guess. I simply don't have mental energy (or the inclination) to tread on eggshells in every aspect of my life. I'll just go on assuming that kids with crewcuts are boys, and hope I don't send them spiraling into a gender identity crisis (or their parents into an unwarranted hissy fit).