That story was newsworthy? Really?

Catholic Charities has and still does the same thing in the US. They have been forcing women to surrender babies for years because they do not deem them fit to raise babies.

As for the adoption scandal from Guatemala - meh, so what? It's not like US domestic adoption is not rife with scandals that occur every day.

Btw I am happy adoptive parent, I am just not naive about the adoption industry either here or abroad

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:If you knew nothing other than the country you'd be born into, which of these two would you pick?

I would pick the one I was born into

I'm just going to hope that English isn't your native language, and you're still struggling with it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't know the details of these two families, but I do know that the standard of living is so much better here that as a child you'd be crazy to pick an average family here over one there. If you knew nothing other than the country you'd be born into, which of these two would you pick?

I would pick the one I was born into

I think "would" is the operative word here. You're not six. You're not in this situation. Your capacity for perspective-taking is superhuman, though.

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:If my two-year-old were abducted and taken to, say, Norway (top standard of living in the world) and raised by a decent family (something unclear in the original story) to age six, I would seriously consider leaving her there, as difficult as that would be, rather than traumatizing her that way. Sometimes love requires sacrifice.

I don't think there's an easy answer here. I don't think it's crazy to return the child. Maybe you should similarly consider the nuances and competing interests here.

you are not a mother
Lets tell the adoptive parents that love requires sacrifice

In the US, this situation happens with some frequency. For example, a mother gives up a baby for adoption against the wishes of the biological father. This is illegal, but she runs off to another state to have the baby, does not put down the father on the birth certificate, and then finalizes the adoption. The father tracks down the child and goes to court to gain custodial rights and is denied because too much time has passed. The courts are required to do what is in the best interest of the child. And they almost always keep the child with the adoptive parents. Even judges who are mothers.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't know the details of these two families, but I do know that the standard of living is so much better here that as a child you'd be crazy to pick an average family here over one there. If you knew nothing other than the country you'd be born into, which of these two would you pick?

I would pick the one I was born into

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:If my two-year-old were abducted and taken to, say, Norway (top standard of living in the world) and raised by a decent family (something unclear in the original story) to age six, I would seriously consider leaving her there, as difficult as that would be, rather than traumatizing her that way. Sometimes love requires sacrifice.

I don't think there's an easy answer here. I don't think it's crazy to return the child. Maybe you should similarly consider the nuances and competing interests here.

you are not a mother

Nice.

Your footing on the moral high ground has gotten awfully slippery.

TheManWithAUsername wrote:If my two-year-old were abducted and taken to, say, Norway (top standard of living in the world) and raised by a decent family (something unclear in the original story) to age six, I would seriously consider leaving her there, as difficult as that would be, rather than traumatizing her that way. Sometimes love requires sacrifice.

I don't think there's an easy answer here. I don't think it's crazy to return the child. Maybe you should similarly consider the nuances and competing interests here.

you are not a mother
Lets tell the adoptive parents that love requires sacrifice

takoma wrote:Ditto on the no easy answers response. I would hate to be the judge or jury on this one.

I have no idea, but as a legal matter it may be very cut-and-dry. It would make some sense for governments to agree to always return children in these situations, so to discourage the trafficking.

Ditto on the no easy answers response. I would hate to be the judge or jury on this one.

Anonymous wrote:Wow, wow and triple wow!

Can't say I'm surprised that someone read a bunch of stuff into what I posted, but you were quick out of the box. Try reading my very short, very limited statement again, taking out your many assumptions about what I must be thinking.

Anonymous wrote:Please flip the script. Imagine your two year old child ripped from you. You search desperately for your child and find out two years later that your child is living abroad, illegally adopted by someone else. Do you just stop there and give up on your child.

Didn't say she should have. I didn't criticize her in the least. I have great sympathy for her. That's why I said, "There's no good answer here."

Anonymous wrote:The adoptive parents knew two years ago that their adoption was fraudulently obtained. They could have made this less painful for the child. The adoptive parents chose to prolong this agony for this child.

I didn't say anything about their rights. To the contrary, I said it was all about the child's best interests.

Anonymous wrote:Moreover, This adoptive family is not the only family this child has ever known. She knows her bio family...

Knows them? From 5 years ago, when she was 2? Right.

Anonymous wrote:...and at four would have reacclimatized herself better than at six.

Presumably. What does that matter to the situation now? You seem to support sending her back to punish the adopted family.

Anonymous wrote:However, six is not that old. Many children are adopted as older children, so can reacclimatize herself with her bio family.

I notice that you're not actually saying that it won't be terribly traumatic. I hope you wouldn't say that.

Anonymous wrote:Finally, how can you say that her standard of living would be an extreme drop. Do you imagine that everything is american is better and greater.

I didn't. I said "may." Try reading the words on the screen instead of what words you can imagine that will get you into a self-righteous tizzy.

I don't know the details of these two families, but I do know that the standard of living is so much better here that as a child you'd be crazy to pick an average family here over one there. If you knew nothing other than the country you'd be born into, which of these two would you pick?

Anonymous wrote:Should all the poor women, and I am not saying this bio mom is poor, should just relinquish their offspring to wealthier women.

Yes, but the rich might not want ALL of the poor babies. In particular, the rich would prefer white babies without any congenital defects, so the others would more likely stay with their birth parents. But rather than make assumptions and create some huge bureaucracy to manage this, I would favor a free international market in children. That's why I think those maverick entrepreneurs who acquired the item from its manufacturer should be lauded as innovators instead of vilified as criminals. You rightly saw where I was going with my original few sentences.

Anonymous wrote:This child should be returned to her bio family if they are determined to be fit. After all, if it was my child, I would want my child returned to me if he was stolen. Would not you if it was your child?

Nah - I wouldn't give a shit. That's why I have multiple kids, so I can spare some.

You focused entirely on the rights of the birth parent, as if the child is her property. I'm focusing on the best interests of the child, based on the limited information available to me.

If my two-year-old were abducted and taken to, say, Norway (top standard of living in the world) and raised by a decent family (something unclear in the original story) to age six, I would seriously consider leaving her there, as difficult as that would be, rather than traumatizing her that way. Sometimes love requires sacrifice.

I don't think there's an easy answer here. I don't think it's crazy to return the child. Maybe you should similarly consider the nuances and competing interests here.

What kind of a childless woman wants a child so badly that she is willing to take someone elses kidnapped child?
What kind of a family will not refuse to have anything to do with such a case?
They could have tried to reunit the child once they heard about it.
Aoption is not supposed to take away a family, but to provide one when there is none.
The same with these Spanish babies. I vote to return every stolen child

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well the latest news is that a baby was stolen by gangsters in Guatemala and put in an orphanage and an American couple adopted that child. The kid was 2 and is now 6. The criminals and the judge involved in the adoption have been arrested and the US has been asked to give the child back.
The adoptive parents were informed 2 years ago as this was a case that takes its time to work thru the courts. They ignored it. Now they are hiring lawers and plan to fight till the end to be able to keep their stolen child. The real mother, who was a victim of this horrific crime, was elated when the judge ordered the US to return the child. But we will see if she will ever even see her child

This story is tragic for EVERYONE. Especially the little girl who potentially faces getting ripped away from the only parents she has ever known and sent to a foreign country where she does not know the language and knows no body. Talk about fucking that kid up for life.

Not to mention what may be an extreme drop in standard of living.

There's no good answer there. Legal issues aside, I'd lean toward keeping here. Like in an custody dispute, the child's interests should rule.

Wow, wow and triple wow! Please flip the script. Imagine your two year old child ripped from you. You search desperately for your child and find out two years later that your child is living abroad, illegally adopted by someone else. Do you just stop there and give up on your child. The adoptive parents knew two years ago that their adoption was fraudulently obtained. They could have made this less painful for the child. The adoptive parents chose to prolong this agony for this child. Moreover, This adoptive family is not the only family this child has ever known. She knows her bio family, and at four would have reacclimatized herself better than at six. However, six is not that old. Many children are adopted as older children, so can reacclimatize herself with her bio family. She was two when she was snatched from her biological family.

Finally, how can you say that her standard of living would be an extreme drop. Do you imagine that everything is american is better and greater. Should all the poor women, and I am not saying this bio mom is poor, should just relinquish their offspring to wealthier women. This child should be returned to her bio family if they are determined to be fit. After all, if it was my child, I would want my child returned to me if he was stolen. Would not you if it was your child?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well the latest news is that a baby was stolen by gangsters in Guatemala and put in an orphanage and an American couple adopted that child. The kid was 2 and is now 6. The criminals and the judge involved in the adoption have been arrested and the US has been asked to give the child back.
The adoptive parents were informed 2 years ago as this was a case that takes its time to work thru the courts. They ignored it. Now they are hiring lawers and plan to fight till the end to be able to keep their stolen child. The real mother, who was a victim of this horrific crime, was elated when the judge ordered the US to return the child. But we will see if she will ever even see her child

This story is tragic for EVERYONE. Especially the little girl who potentially faces getting ripped away from the only parents she has ever known and sent to a foreign country where she does not know the language and knows no body. Talk about fucking that kid up for life.

Not to mention what may be an extreme drop in standard of living.

There's no good answer there. Legal issues aside, I'd lean toward keeping here. Like in an custody dispute, the child's interests should rule.

Anonymous wrote:Well the latest news is that a baby was stolen by gangsters in Guatemala and put in an orphanage and an American couple adopted that child. The kid was 2 and is now 6. The criminals and the judge involved in the adoption have been arrested and the US has been asked to give the child back.
The adoptive parents were informed 2 years ago as this was a case that takes its time to work thru the courts. They ignored it. Now they are hiring lawers and plan to fight till the end to be able to keep their stolen child. The real mother, who was a victim of this horrific crime, was elated when the judge ordered the US to return the child. But we will see if she will ever even see her child

This story is tragic for EVERYONE. Especially the little girl who potentially faces getting ripped away from the only parents she has ever known and sent to a foreign country where she does not know the language and knows no body. Talk about fucking that kid up for life.

I have a 6yr old and cannot imagine him being the victim of this. The adoptive parents had no clue and if someone were going to rip my child away and dump them in Guatemala, I'd fight to the death.

Well the latest news is that a baby was stolen by gangsters in Guatemala and put in an orphanage and an American couple adopted that child. The kid was 2 and is now 6. The criminals and the judge involved in the adoption have been arrested and the US has been asked to give the child back.
The adoptive parents were informed 2 years ago as this was a case that takes its time to work thru the courts. They ignored it. Now they are hiring lawers and plan to fight till the end to be able to keep their stolen child. The real mother, who was a victim of this horrific crime, was elated when the judge ordered the US to return the child. But we will see if she will ever even see her child