Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree with this and think about it a lot. It's like, some parents decide to quit jobs/tone down responsibility to give the kids everything time- and opportunity-wise, but they give up what THEIR parent did for them, right? I often think - ok, I'm 33, and my parents paid for my education, etc. So if I quit work to raise kids (and this is NOT meant to bash SAHM's), and give them everything, will they just do the same thing? And if so, why am I doing it? Hope this makes sense to someone, I know it's a bit convoluted.

I know exactly what you mean...you can go around in circles for hours with this thought process. I eventually broke out - this is my thinking: Unless you're Steve Jobs or Oprah Winfrey (to give a female example, although she has no husband/kids), when you die there aren't groups of strangers assessing your life's accomplishments. Even if they name a conference room or a scholarship after you when you die, what good does that do you? I've decided that life is really just a compilation of days and what's important is you are happy day-to-day, so I chose to do what I think will make me the most happy on a daily basis. Before anyone accuses me of being selfish, one of the things that makes me the most happy is happy kids and spending quality family time. I also like earning an income at a job with reasonable hours and nice people. So that's what I'm doing.

PP here and I do the EXACT same thing.
I do admit that I find it kind of ironic when SAHM's push for their daughters to be in the BEST activities, go to the BEST schools, etc. What do you want for them that you didn't want for yourself? I know we all have choices to make, but it seems like it's worth discussion.

Anonymous wrote:If I had a daughter, I'd want her life to be more than just being a wife and mother. My mother, sister and I are all great mothers, but we have acheived significant success in our carreers, and I would want the same thing for my daughter (I only have sons, but I'll encourage them to look for women with some ambition in life). There, I said it. Sorry if it offends.

It depends on what your definition of a successful career is though. I consider myself to have a successful career but I don't work the kind of hours that would require my kids to learn about me from a book.

Anonymous wrote:
I agree with this and think about it a lot. It's like, some parents decide to quit jobs/tone down responsibility to give the kids everything time- and opportunity-wise, but they give up what THEIR parent did for them, right? I often think - ok, I'm 33, and my parents paid for my education, etc. So if I quit work to raise kids (and this is NOT meant to bash SAHM's), and give them everything, will they just do the same thing? And if so, why am I doing it? Hope this makes sense to someone, I know it's a bit convoluted.

I know exactly what you mean...you can go around in circles for hours with this thought process. I eventually broke out - this is my thinking: Unless you're Steve Jobs or Oprah Winfrey (to give a female example, although she has no husband/kids), when you die there aren't groups of strangers assessing your life's accomplishments. Even if they name a conference room or a scholarship after you when you die, what good does that do you? I've decided that life is really just a compilation of days and what's important is you are happy day-to-day, so I chose to do what I think will make me the most happy on a daily basis. Before anyone accuses me of being selfish, one of the things that makes me the most happy is happy kids and spending quality family time. I also like earning an income at a job with reasonable hours and nice people. So that's what I'm doing. I used to earn six figures and have a prestigious career but I wasn't happy.

We women really have touch decisions to make - it's not easy.

If I had a daughter, I'd want her life to be more than just being a wife and mother. My mother, sister and I are all great mothers, but we have acheived significant success in our carreers, and I would want the same thing for my daughter (I only have sons, but I'll encourage them to look for women with some ambition in life). There, I said it. Sorry if it offends.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I admire people who achieve great things and actually feel that my decision to leave the workforce for several years was a self-indulgent mistake. If it were up to me to make one of my daughters a SAHM like me or a Stephanie Jobs I would certainly choose the latter.

Ditto.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I admire people who achieve great things and actually feel that my decision to leave the workforce for several years was a self-indulgent mistake. If it were up to me to make one of my daughters a SAHM like me or a Stephanie Jobs I would certainly choose the latter.

This is an interesting conversation. I'm curious...if it were up to you to make yourself either a SAHM or a Stephanie Jobs, which would you choose? Or is it that you wish you had found a part time job rather than quitting completely. I hate regret...I'm sorry you feel your decision was a mistake.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting, this conversation.

Do SAHMs of daughters who blast "ambitious women" plan to stress stay at home as the best option for their daughters and chide them if the do not? WIll you be the evil MIL to the working spouse of your sons?

do you also stress school achievement for your daughters? if yes why? ONly fluency in math and reading is really necessary. Why take up space in higher ed? why send them to preschool? enrichment classes? try to get them into AP, GT programs? college? and please don't let them take up space in grad school or take scholarships from the ambitious.

I don't understand where you're going with this, PP.

My mother, my grandmothers, my great-grandmothers, were all brilliant, highly educated women. All stayed home to raise large families. All continued "careers" of some sort while raising their children. They were gifted with brains and children. Their responsibilities were to use and care for all of their gifts, and they did so.

I was raised to understand that everyone has a vocation in life, according to his/her gifts and talents. We can't know what our vocation will be growing up, so we are to do everything to the best of our abilities, from learning to chores to being kind. Once our vocation is clear--single, married, religious--we meet our responsibilities in that vocation. If married, we are open to children, so that may mean a large family and lots of breastfeeding and care--or infertility, or whatever we are called to do. How exactly we meet all our responsibilities and use all our gifts and talents is between us and God.

So my multiple generations of genius stay-at-home mothers all pushed me, and pushed me hard, to be the best in everything I did. I was at the top of every class, won every award, did every enriching activity, and continue to pursue my intellectual passions every chance I get. I'm also home with my children. And it takes all of who I am to care for them.

All of my children will be pushed to do their best, regardless of gender. Because whatever their vocation, they need to be prepared to meet and fulfill it. Human respect, money, power--not important. Using talents and gifts for good--all-important.

Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering about Steve Jobs as a father while listening to some of the press surrounding his passing. There's no question that he made a great contribution to society and the business world with his vision, but I can't help but feel a little sad for what I assume is the toll it took on his family. Frankly I feel that way about many great leaders in our country, including President Obama. Also the military families. Why do we live in a world where greatness often requires sacrificing your family. And quite simply, I think that's why there will always be more "great" men that women. I think there are far fewer women who are willing to make that family sacrifice than there are men. I also think for many men, it may not even be a conscious choice - men have been socialized to be ambitious, driven, to make that family sacrifice while women have not been. Sure, I would like to achieve wonderful things, but I'm not willing to miss out on time with my kids to do so.

PP, you can't be serious! The world has nothing to do with it. "Greatness", no, forget "greatness", any professional achievement means sacrifice, for one simple reason - there are only 24 hours in a day, and you can be physically present in only one place at a time. If you are at the office, you are not at home with your children, and vice versa. Granted, you can try staying in touch using your iPhone.. but it won't be the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a woman, I admire successful women. I work PT and have "stepped down" from a more prestigious route b/c I have two young children. My neurotic tendencies have made me do so - honestly!

I have a friend in some unique (a real niche) IT position. She has two kids, a flexible schedule, and paid travel btw. DC and CA where her company is headquarted.

Her kids are fine. They understand mom travels and are often under the care of their father and/or relatives during her travel time. Eventually, when they're older, they'll travel with her, I'm sure.

I won't push my daughter, but I'll definitely encourage her to break that glass ceiling. If it were not for these women who broke barriers, we'd still be expected to stay home and to manage the household. I certainly want more for my daughter - and I would hope that my son would admire a women who was driven to succeed. Only then can we find true equality - when both men and women are on equal footing in the workforce.

So if there's a "Stephanie Jobs" out there, I'll be cheering her on!

Anonymous wrote:As a woman who is doing what most people will view as stepping down the career ladder to spend more time with family, I've been doing a lot of thinking about these types of issues.

My question is why is it important that there someday will be a female Steve Jobs? I guess what I'm saying is if there really is no woman willing to give up enough family time or whatever to get to Steve Jobs' level, isn't that okay?...as long as women have the choice.

I certainly won't push my daughter to be the next Steve Jobs (or even on a smaller scale, partner of a law firm) if she would prefer to spend more time with her kids.

But it seems mothers always want their daughters to be the glass cieling breakers even if they themselves did not want to. My mom was this way...a HUGE feminist (like me) but chose to "mommy track" herself because she wanted more time at home. This was completely her choice and she was happy. Nevertheless, she "encouraged" me to go to law school and stay on partner track to break those glass ceilings. She was disappointed for a few weeks when I told her I was changing career paths. I had to remind her to think back to when her children were young and how she felt. Now she's totally on board and supportive but for some reason she had this idea that her daughter would break through even though she didn't want to - turn's out I didn't want to either. Oh well. So I'll support my daughter in whatever she chooses but I don't want to sacrifice her life so that the world gets a Stephanie Jobs.

I agree with this and think about it a lot. It's like, some parents decide to quit jobs/tone down responsibility to give the kids everything time- and opportunity-wise, but they give up what THEIR parent did for them, right? I often think - ok, I'm 33, and my parents paid for my education, etc. So if I quit work to raise kids (and this is NOT meant to bash SAHM's), and give them everything, will they just do the same thing? And if so, why am I doing it? Hope this makes sense to someone, I know it's a bit convoluted.

OP again. I admire people who achieve great things and actually feel that my decision to leave the workforce for several years was a self-indulgent mistake. If it were up to me to make one of my daughters a SAHM like me or a Stephanie Jobs I would certainly choose the latter.

I was also wondering about Steve Jobs as a father while listening to some of the press surrounding his passing. There's no question that he made a great contribution to society and the business world with his vision, but I can't help but feel a little sad for what I assume is the toll it took on his family. Frankly I feel that way about many great leaders in our country, including President Obama. Also the military families. Why do we live in a world where greatness often requires sacrificing your family. And quite simply, I think that's why there will always be more "great" men that women. I think there are far fewer women who are willing to make that family sacrifice than there are men. I also think for many men, it may not even be a conscious choice - men have been socialized to be ambitious, driven, to make that family sacrifice while women have not been. Sure, I would like to achieve wonderful things, but I'm not willing to miss out on time with my kids to do so.

Interesting, this conversation.

Do SAHMs of daughters who blast "ambitious women" plan to stress stay at home as the best option for their daughters and chide them if the do not? WIll you be the evil MIL to the working spouse of your sons?

do you also stress school achievement for your daughters? if yes why? ONly fluency in math and reading is really necessary. Why take up space in higher ed? why send them to preschool? enrichment classes? try to get them into AP, GT programs? college? and please don't let them take up space in grad school or take scholarships from the ambitious.

Anonymous wrote:

So, is this a thinly veiled post for Steve Jobs -bashers? I know plenty of idiots who can't pay attention and raise their kids on a good day. What about them, OP?

Really, Jobs contributed to our society in a way the bashers NEVER will. Just because he didn't find the cure for cancer doesn't mean he did not have a tremendous contribution to our society. You don't have to be a fanboy/girl to know he was a true innovator.

He was press savvy and chose his words wisely, as any good business owner does. So what? Let it go people, and worry about your own inept parenting. Stop picking on people who are so obviously out of your league, Steve Jobs or not.

That's an over-the-top response. The OP was asking a legitimate question based on Steve Jobs' own words and summations about his own life. No one was "picking on" anyone. No one is bashing anyone. What an odd response.