Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of the above combined is the perfect storm and why it is so complicated.
-screen addiction
-SM/societal pressures
-parenting roles have changed from Dr Spock to gentle parenting
-schools being measured by numbers of POC suspended/expelled (higher numbers = not good and administrators can get in trouble)
-less discrete classes/more inclusion means kids aren't getting the services/supports they need to be successful
-special ed funding has beed decimated because the LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) is cheaper

The result is what we are all seeing:
-burnt out, exhausted teachers, most doing their very best in an awful situation
-administrators who's hands are tied, what consequences can they give to students who at best have parents won't follow through, and at worst will have parents sue, and at the same time having high consequences gets them in trouble with their bosses
-disruptive kids not having consequences which leads to more and bigger disruptions
-disregulated kids not getting the help and services so that they can get the education they deserve
-neurotypical kids not getting the education they deserve

I agree with most of what you say but in my experience the parenting failures are about 50% "do nothing gentle parent type things" and 50% "abusive and/or inept"
I don't think there is a perfect solution that is likely to happen but the closest I think we can get is to bring back ability grouping (not just SPED clusters for delivery of services) If we had a class that was all the kids below grade level that could get maximum push ins (EL, SPED, interventionists) it would probably reduce burnout and you'd have decently functioning classes.

PP. I agree with this. My younger is 17. So too late to affect his K-12 schooling. My district is still caught up in all this equity language. But the only kids that are better off are the LRE kids.

I think maybe someday things will swing back. Just like Calkins' Guided Reading/Reader's Workshop got debunked.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Were schools like this a generation ago? I don't remember anything like the behavioral problems we have now. We pulled my oldest several weeks before school ended because she was assaulted and her class was a mess. They were evacuated so many times throughout the year, at least weekly. My son's class was the same. And it was the same before too. Teachers can barely teach now because the kids can't sit still, won't be quiet, argue, and are hurting other kids. I know multiple teachers who have been assaulted and have left teaching because of it. Several parents banded together to go to the principal, but the principal was completely on the side of the abusive kids.

As a parent I'm not even sure what I should do. Is this a new thing? Are kids more violent? I do remember violent fights in high school, but we called police in to stop it (and kids got arrested, expelled, and sent to juvie). I just don't remember anything in elementary. DH and I are touring private schools, but we have 3 kids and at 20-25k, we aren't sure we can afford it for all 3. I'm really concerned about middle school because the kids are bigger and can cause more damage.

Yes and no.

A generation or two ago, kids who had these behavioral issues were sent to specialized schools and warehoused, if they had an IEP, or ended up being suspended and expelled and sent to alternative schools. A good number of the kids dropped out of school when they could.

People were not happy with the high percentage of kids dropping out or graduating with out a basic degree and more emphasis was placed on helping kids learn. Not a bad thing but the push to move more kids in mainstream classes, to stop the warehousing, and address kids issues instead of punishing straight away has led to more issues in the mainstream class and fewer resources to address the problems that some kids have.

There was also the tats that showed that minorities and kids with IEPs were punished more harshly then non-minorities so policies were put in place to try and address issues without suspensions and expulsion. THe problem is that the solutions have failed and the kids stay in school and are more disruptive. And now that funding is tied to attendence and graduation rates, kids are being passed from grade to grade without learning anything. Schools bend over backwards to prevent kids from being expelled or dropping out.

I agree with this poster. Philosophies have changed about how to handle certain types of students.

I have a high school friend who became an elementary school teacher. I met him in an elective class in 9th grade. He was bright but an undiagnosed dyslexic so actually had been held back a lot (Kindergarten 2 times, lowest math track, etc.).

I was in the screened-in gifted student track. He was in the low track until he matured and started having different priorities and pulling himself out of the "not going to college" track. When we talk about our shared high school, I had no experience studying with kids with behavioral difficulties in high school but he did. The lower track of kids also got the worst teachers/teachers who were apathetic. He eventually went to college, got multiple degrees, and became an excellent teacher who can help all types of kids to maximize their academic growth. He understands how to address and remediate issues that didn't use to get handled.

Flash forward to my own kids. My school district has no formal tracking (until eligible for high school AP classes). Because there was no tracking in elementary school, my kids were underchallenged, phoning it in, etc. Particularly in math. And they did have kids with behavioral and learning IEPs in their classrooms. The kids with issues do attract notice and can derail daily lesson plans and group projects. I was asked by a 3rd grade teacher whether my younger kid should go to a private school for gifted kids but I decided not to do that. In part because I'd learned through life experience that having good people skills is more important on the job than being really smart (learned the hard way).

It's definitely true that public education seems worse than in my childhood because of the insistence on mainstreaming disruptive children. Allegedly, these equity initiatives are beneficial overall. I wonder if those findings are rigorous and will hold up over time. What I see happening is that people buy into expensive school districts to minimize the chances that their kids' education will be severely impacted by current educational philosophies. Wealthy school districts can better manage support services, breakout classes, and special ed tracks that are satisfactory to the parents of kids with IEPs. And there's still a strong relationship between parental affluence and student performance. I decided to go a different, more equitable way, and I do see some negative consequences. If I had tiger parented, I might have been able to avoid more of them. But I've walked right up to the line of pushing too much with my younger kid. I did spend quite a bit on math tutoring but not sure it made up for lower classroom standards in elementary.

I agree with a lot of what is being said, but one important thing hasn't been mentioned: Awareness.

Parents seem to get notified by email of every incident that occurs. And then it gets discussed forever.

Sure, there is somewhat more bad behavior than prior generations, but not a whole lot. We are just way way more aware of it than parents used to be.

Anonymous wrote:All of the above combined is the perfect storm and why it is so complicated.
-screen addiction
-SM/societal pressures
-parenting roles have changed from Dr Spock to gentle parenting
-schools being measured by numbers of POC suspended/expelled (higher numbers = not good and administrators can get in trouble)
-less discrete classes/more inclusion means kids aren't getting the services/supports they need to be successful
-special ed funding has beed decimated because the LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) is cheaper

The result is what we are all seeing:
-burnt out, exhausted teachers, most doing their very best in an awful situation
-administrators who's hands are tied, what consequences can they give to students who at best have parents won't follow through, and at worst will have parents sue, and at the same time having high consequences gets them in trouble with their bosses
-disruptive kids not having consequences which leads to more and bigger disruptions
-disregulated kids not getting the help and services so that they can get the education they deserve
-neurotypical kids not getting the education they deserve

100% PP. Do you work in education?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s new. Too many screens, social media, parents who don’t want to parent.

This. Class sizes need to be reduced greatly and more attention should be paid to social emotional development and to bolstering self regulation skills.

Yep!

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s new. Too many screens, social media, parents who don’t want to parent.

This. Class sizes need to be reduced greatly and more attention should be paid to social emotional development and to bolstering self regulation skills.

In addition to everything stated above, kids who do much of the bad behavior also have IEPs so the behavior is blamed on their disability and there's nothing the school can do about it.

Anonymous wrote:All of the above combined is the perfect storm and why it is so complicated.
-screen addiction
-SM/societal pressures
-parenting roles have changed from Dr Spock to gentle parenting
-schools being measured by numbers of POC suspended/expelled (higher numbers = not good and administrators can get in trouble)
-less discrete classes/more inclusion means kids aren't getting the services/supports they need to be successful
-special ed funding has beed decimated because the LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) is cheaper

The result is what we are all seeing:
-burnt out, exhausted teachers, most doing their very best in an awful situation
-administrators who's hands are tied, what consequences can they give to students who at best have parents won't follow through, and at worst will have parents sue, and at the same time having high consequences gets them in trouble with their bosses
-disruptive kids not having consequences which leads to more and bigger disruptions
-disregulated kids not getting the help and services so that they can get the education they deserve
-neurotypical kids not getting the education they deserve

I agree with most of what you say but in my experience the parenting failures are about 50% "do nothing gentle parent type things" and 50% "abusive and/or inept"
I don't think there is a perfect solution that is likely to happen but the closest I think we can get is to bring back ability grouping (not just SPED clusters for delivery of services) If we had a class that was all the kids below grade level that could get maximum push ins (EL, SPED, interventionists) it would probably reduce burnout and you'd have decently functioning classes.

All of the above combined is the perfect storm and why it is so complicated.
-screen addiction
-SM/societal pressures
-parenting roles have changed from Dr Spock to gentle parenting
-schools being measured by numbers of POC suspended/expelled (higher numbers = not good and administrators can get in trouble)
-less discrete classes/more inclusion means kids aren't getting the services/supports they need to be successful
-special ed funding has beed decimated because the LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) is cheaper

The result is what we are all seeing:
-burnt out, exhausted teachers, most doing their very best in an awful situation
-administrators who's hands are tied, what consequences can they give to students who at best have parents won't follow through, and at worst will have parents sue, and at the same time having high consequences gets them in trouble with their bosses
-disruptive kids not having consequences which leads to more and bigger disruptions
-disregulated kids not getting the help and services so that they can get the education they deserve
-neurotypical kids not getting the education they deserve

It comes down to the parents. If you are not tough at home, the teacher doesn’t have a chance. On this board I often see parents state, “ Larlo received consequences at school, so I don’t need to discipline at home.” I am sorry you are stressed and tired at your job/life/spouse—you still need to parent.

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in the 1960s and 1970s. There were tons of behavioral issues. And the level of violence was pretty high - with weapons, such as knives and pipes. There were also pretty big riots in the schools. I'm only aware of one gun incident, but there could have been more.

The difference was how they were handled. Kids were paddled in class. Kids got detention. Kids got demerits that earned consequences if you got too many. Kids were suspended. Kids were expelled. Kids were sent to alternative programs and parental permission was not required. Parents supported this and they supported teachers. Most parents had the attitude of if the school punished you, it would be far worse at home. Few parents disrespected teachers or didn't support the actions they took.

Additionally, parents didn't tolerate much from their kids at that time either. There was an incredible amount of freedom but if were disrespectful or got in trouble, your parents were going to make sure your life sucked. Also, parents didn't give you much - if you wanted money for something, you got a job, you mowed lawns, you shoveled snow, you babysat, whatever.

I do think our schools have more kids with disabilities in mainstream programs. I have no sense of how many kids might have experienced dysregulated behavior because they had their own schools and we didn't see them. I have a sense this is a bigger problem now. I think it's good that special education is a big focus and that parents are involved. But one of the consequences of that is that parents sometimes refuse recommendations and violent kids stay in class, which is something we never saw when I was growing up. Somehow that has to change.

The parents of the kids with disabilities really seem to like the inclusion classrooms. In my opinion however, if you're going to place these kids in a mainstream class, just about the worst thing you can do is concentrate these kids all together in one classroom. If you're the parent of a NT child and request to not have your child placed in such classroom environment, you are seen as a pariah by school administration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in the 1960s and 1970s. There were tons of behavioral issues. And the level of violence was pretty high - with weapons, such as knives and pipes. There were also pretty big riots in the schools. I'm only aware of one gun incident, but there could have been more.

The difference was how they were handled. Kids were paddled in class. Kids got detention. Kids got demerits that earned consequences if you got too many. Kids were suspended. Kids were expelled. Kids were sent to alternative programs and parental permission was not required. Parents supported this and they supported teachers. Most parents had the attitude of if the school punished you, it would be far worse at home. Few parents disrespected teachers or didn't support the actions they took.

Additionally, parents didn't tolerate much from their kids at that time either. There was an incredible amount of freedom but if were disrespectful or got in trouble, your parents were going to make sure your life sucked. Also, parents didn't give you much - if you wanted money for something, you got a job, you mowed lawns, you shoveled snow, you babysat, whatever.

I do think our schools have more kids with disabilities in mainstream programs. I have no sense of how many kids might have experienced dysregulated behavior because they had their own schools and we didn't see them. I have a sense this is a bigger problem now. I think it's good that special education is a big focus and that parents are involved. But one of the consequences of that is that parents sometimes refuse recommendations and violent kids stay in class, which is something we never saw when I was growing up. Somehow that has to change.

Just last week my son said "it's not bad getting in trouble. You just go to the principals office, don't have to stay in class, and he hands out Takis." My husband and I were like "Oh no, no, no. That's only the beginning of the pain you'll feel if you get sent to the principal's office. You'll be sitting in a bare bedroom without a door doing math homework all weekend, and that's just a start."

This is another big difference from 20 years ago, or even 10. Administrators should not be kids' friends and leaving class should not be see as a way to get out of doing work. You can be a trusted adult and a good school leader without rewarding terrible behavior.

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in the 1960s and 1970s. There were tons of behavioral issues. And the level of violence was pretty high - with weapons, such as knives and pipes. There were also pretty big riots in the schools. I'm only aware of one gun incident, but there could have been more.

The difference was how they were handled. Kids were paddled in class. Kids got detention. Kids got demerits that earned consequences if you got too many. Kids were suspended. Kids were expelled. Kids were sent to alternative programs and parental permission was not required. Parents supported this and they supported teachers. Most parents had the attitude of if the school punished you, it would be far worse at home. Few parents disrespected teachers or didn't support the actions they took.

Additionally, parents didn't tolerate much from their kids at that time either. There was an incredible amount of freedom but if were disrespectful or got in trouble, your parents were going to make sure your life sucked. Also, parents didn't give you much - if you wanted money for something, you got a job, you mowed lawns, you shoveled snow, you babysat, whatever.

I do think our schools have more kids with disabilities in mainstream programs. I have no sense of how many kids might have experienced dysregulated behavior because they had their own schools and we didn't see them. I have a sense this is a bigger problem now. I think it's good that special education is a big focus and that parents are involved. But one of the consequences of that is that parents sometimes refuse recommendations and violent kids stay in class, which is something we never saw when I was growing up. Somehow that has to change.

Just last week my son said "it's not bad getting in trouble. You just go to the principals office, don't have to stay in class, and he hands out Takis." My husband and I were like "Oh no, no, no. That's only the beginning of the pain you'll feel if you get sent to the principal's office. You'll be sitting in a bare bedroom without a door doing math homework all weekend, and that's just a start."

Human beings have been around for about 300,000 years. We haven't changed that much. What is different in American schools is that discipline and consequences are gone for this generation of students. Because "equity." And that leads to a lot of unfortunate results.

All that can be changed in a heartbeat with consequences for bad behavior and banning screens during the school day. It's not like 15 year olds today are some novel new species. Adults have simply messed up with how we are educating and socializing middle and high schoolers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here- The disruptive kids aren't special needs. We do not have separate classes, not even for gifted.

Some of them probably are. How would you know? IEPs and 504s are private information that you would not be privy to.

Fine, then they need their own classroom

They do. There is no money for that. You can't put 20 IEP kids in one classroom with one teacher. You need classes of fewer kids and more aids. There is no $ for that.