Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course some people are just smarter than others. How is that not obvious?

I don’t think we’re allowed to say that.

That’s because it’s outdated thinking. What exactly makes a person smarter than another. In school it’s probably a little easier to detect. Academically smarter is someone who has an easier time memorizing a lot of new information. If you have a logical mind you’ll be able to relate to the information easily. If you have a mathematical mind then math will come easier to you.

But scientists have broken down the various forms of intellect that have nothing to do with IQ which will be more important after school is completed.

Most people don’t know their IQ or need to know unless there is a problem.

No it's not. I'm 40 in a workplace and people still get categorized into the smarties and the dummies.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

What is your opinion on why Asian students are disproportionately excelling in math and science?

Anonymous wrote:I’m a teacher in a Title I school. The teachers in my school work hard and many kids work hard and their scores don’t reflect the hard work. I do think IQ is genetic and I also think that environmental influences greatly impact memory and learning. So my students who were born from a mom who couldn’t afford good prenatal care into a family where the parents have to work two jobs and the kids are cared for by an older sibling, who have poor nutrition because they can’t afford better, who don’t sleep well because there are 4 families living loudly in one apartment…well all the odds are stacked against them.

100%

It is why the kids who come from that environment and do amazing are such wonderful stories, they really defied the odds. The reality is, most of the kids coming from that environment are not going to be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I don't like state testing because we are not comparing apples to apples, we are compaing apples to organges, bananas and a host of other different varities of lives. We should be looking at schools for growth and improvement not for reaching a standard that is not attainable for many kids. Not because they are not capable or even brilliant but because the environments they are coming out of do not nurture their native abilities.

Hard work does matter even if it doesn't turn into an A. Kids who learn to make their best effort and work hard might not turn into academic rock stars but, hopefully, they learn enough of the material to be able to graduate and move onto something that will help them be productive adults. That could mean that they find a job in retail that pays the bills and raise a family. It oculd mean attending community college and earning a professional certificate that helps them find a good job. It could be that they end up in a trade that provides a good job. It could be that they find their way to college and earn a BA or a BS and find a good job.

Because that person who worked hard and went on to be an electrician or a para legal or a manager at a retail store will raise their kids in a better enviornment and put their kid in a position to do more then their parent did.

But we are so focused on kids having to be on a college track to succeed that we lose track of the fact that success does not equate with college and that growth might be generational.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course some people are just smarter than others. How is that not obvious?

I don’t think we’re allowed to say that.

You just did, my friend.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

A child from a truly dysfunctional or disadvantaged home has a whole host of challenges that effort alone can't always overcome.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

Not just effort but time. In our neighborhood we have five boys in the same class at school this year. Three of them do 3-4 extra hours of math every week. Over the school year that’s over 100 hours spent on math outside of school. Yes, they are Asian and Jewish. Two kids spend 4 hours a week on football. Yes, they are white. Guess who is better at math? Guess who is better at football?

The kids who spent the time on math are great at math, ok to terrible at football. The kids who spent the time on football are ok to great at football, ok to below average at math. Not because they are Asian, Jewish, or white, but based on how they spent their time. None of them are natural math whizzes and none of them are amazing natural sportsmen.

I know people who put in hours and hours per week in sports only to still fail tryouts. So it isn’t time. Likewise, I knew people who spent hours studying and tutoring only to still get Bs and Cs

Did they start at age 7-8 though? In classical violin, it's pretty much a given nowadays that if you don't start by age 5, maybe 6, you can't play professionally. And time only gets you so far. If you put in hours and hours, you may make the basketball teams from age 8-13, but if you don't have that late growth spurt and remain 5'6," you're probably not going to make the high school team.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

Not just effort but time. In our neighborhood we have five boys in the same class at school this year. Three of them do 3-4 extra hours of math every week. Over the school year that’s over 100 hours spent on math outside of school. Yes, they are Asian and Jewish. Two kids spend 4 hours a week on football. Yes, they are white. Guess who is better at math? Guess who is better at football?

The kids who spent the time on math are great at math, ok to terrible at football. The kids who spent the time on football are ok to great at football, ok to below average at math. Not because they are Asian, Jewish, or white, but based on how they spent their time. None of them are natural math whizzes and none of them are amazing natural sportsmen.

I know people who put in hours and hours per week in sports only to still fail tryouts. So it isn’t time. Likewise, I knew people who spent hours studying and tutoring only to still get Bs and Cs

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

Not just effort but time. In our neighborhood we have five boys in the same class at school this year. Three of them do 3-4 extra hours of math every week. Over the school year that’s over 100 hours spent on math outside of school. Yes, they are Asian and Jewish. Two kids spend 4 hours a week on football. Yes, they are white. Guess who is better at math? Guess who is better at football?

The kids who spent the time on math are great at math, ok to terrible at football. The kids who spent the time on football are ok to great at football, ok to below average at math. Not because they are Asian, Jewish, or white, but based on how they spent their time. None of them are natural math whizzes and none of them are amazing natural sportsmen.

Exactly. 3 to 4 extra hours a week on math is a modest sacrifice. Are most kids more likely to benefit in the long run based on their math skills or football skills? My kid took a one week break from a HS sport to crank out an important paper. The coach supported the temporary leave (my kid kind of sucked but loved the sport and team). My kid ended up at a great college and is doing well professionally.

As an aside, I’m not high on football due to the data on brain injuries but that’s another thread.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

Not just effort but time. In our neighborhood we have five boys in the same class at school this year. Three of them do 3-4 extra hours of math every week. Over the school year that’s over 100 hours spent on math outside of school. Yes, they are Asian and Jewish. Two kids spend 4 hours a week on football. Yes, they are white. Guess who is better at math? Guess who is better at football?

The kids who spent the time on math are great at math, ok to terrible at football. The kids who spent the time on football are ok to great at football, ok to below average at math. Not because they are Asian, Jewish, or white, but based on how they spent their time. None of them are natural math whizzes and none of them are amazing natural sportsmen.

I guess I’m from the school of Hard Knocks. There’s a reason that Jews and Asians punch way above their weight academically. They’re not smarter. They work harder and are more disciplined (I’m Jewish). I’m reading way too many excuses and rationalizations in the comments above. I don’t doubt that some kids face real challenges and I don’t mean to demean them. However, I hold multiple Ivy degrees. I met a few really smart people in school. But, by and large, my classmates were like everyone else but put in more effort to achieve. I’ve found the same thing in my career.

Anonymous wrote:I’m a teacher in a Title I school. The teachers in my school work hard and many kids work hard and their scores don’t reflect the hard work. I do think IQ is genetic and I also think that environmental influences greatly impact memory and learning. So my students who were born from a mom who couldn’t afford good prenatal care into a family where the parents have to work two jobs and the kids are cared for by an older sibling, who have poor nutrition because they can’t afford better, who don’t sleep well because there are 4 families living loudly in one apartment…well all the odds are stacked against them.

I used to teach at a Title 1 and agree with this. It's not just nature and not just nurture, it's the whole package. Sometimes kids from these rough backgrounds show these sparks of intelligence early on, but the home environment combined with peer pressure from the community (which is often very anti-intellectual) stamps it out.

It is very hard for someone with a high school education or less to raise a college-bound kid. Not impossible, it happens, and we should rightly commend the parents who manage to do it. It takes a lot of self discipline and a level of maturity you don't see in every parent (even the educated, wealthy ones). One thing that can happen is that uneducated parents who have kids young can become envious of a child who is showing signs of academic promise. They almost view their kid as a rival. It's very sad.

People are more products of their parents than we culturally believe. Not just genetics but everything (including genetics). We have this fantasy of individualism in the US, that can manifest as a belief that every person is a blank slate and a meritocracy will enable them to go as far as their own hard work will carry them. It's just not true. So much about our lives are scripted before we are even born. You can do more or less with your lot in life, but everyone doesn't start in the same place at all. And never will. Even if everyone had the same amount of money and academic opportunities (not possible, but pretend), there would be kids who were loved and nurtured and encouraged to succeed and kids who were not. Guess who would go further? It's not rocket science.

The best thing you can do for your kids, regardless of your socioeconomic status, is encourage and support them to learn and keep learning. If your child's learning starts to exceed your own, find opportunities for them to be around adults with more education than you. Put them among kids who value learning, whose families value learning. I'm not rich but this is what I have done and my kid is a straight A student. She works hard but I do whatever I can to put her in a position where her hard work matters.

"Hard work" also encompasses a lot of things. Some kids may "work hard" but not effectively. A lot of this comes down to executive function skills and capacity.

Both my kids tested as gifted in IQ, had a strong foundation in early years, and were diagnosed with ADHD in 8th-9th grade.

One was a B student in 9th grade but with coaching mastered the EF needed to keep up across all his classes. Part of that is "working hard" in classes that need it but also having the understanding of where he can strategically slack off and still get the grade vs. working more on another class. By 11th grade he was consistently a straight A student.

My other kid struggles much more with EF despite coaching. Her grades are more like whack-a-mole. Gets one grade up and another goes down. Every quarter there's one class with a C because she's not keeping up with the work. But the next quarter it's a different class with a C. In the end she always averages out to As and Bs but with a lot of mental stress. It's frustrating to watch but we give all the support we can with ADHD meds + coaching.