Anonymous wrote:People like you OP do not hire for jobs like I do. You could not be more run in terms of skills. I hope and want and wish to fill my jobs with American talent from a culture and language/comms perspective. However I have Russian, Indian, Chinese and ever more frequently Nigerian talent in engineering and software development to choose. You think Americans are studying and getting skilled in engineering and you are wrong. So. Totally. Wrong. Culturally, Americans do best in finance, sales, business, law. They do not do math and tech. Go to high schools and you'll see all the kids playing sports are Americans and all those playing an instrument are either American who have a strong tradition culturally in academic all around excellence or they are typically those with a foreign last name. There's a tradition of studying math, science and STEM that's rooted in tradition v cultural oh I think that might be cool but maybe I'll go where the money is and it's easier attitude among most Americans. Quite honestly the truth is Americans are rockstar sales people. They are not rock star geeks

You make too many arguments that don't make any sense to the audience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.

Tell me you don't work in private sector tech without telling me you don't work in private sector tech.

Technically it is private sector, government contracting.

The worst of both worlds really, all the regulations and bad salaries.

Security?

Private sector as flaky as the politicians that run it.

There are a lot of qualified American tech workers struggling to find work right now.

H1-B and offshoring has been massively abused by US tech companies to undercut and screw over our own homegrown talent.

It needs to end.

People like you OP do not hire for jobs like I do. You could not be more run in terms of skills. I hope and want and wish to fill my jobs with American talent from a culture and language/comms perspective. However I have Russian, Indian, Chinese and ever more frequently Nigerian talent in engineering and software development to choose. You think Americans are studying and getting skilled in engineering and you are wrong. So. Totally. Wrong. Culturally, Americans do best in finance, sales, business, law. They do not do math and tech. Go to high schools and you'll see all the kids playing sports are Americans and all those playing an instrument are either American who have a strong tradition culturally in academic all around excellence or they are typically those with a foreign last name. There's a tradition of studying math, science and STEM that's rooted in tradition v cultural oh I think that might be cool but maybe I'll go where the money is and it's easier attitude among most Americans. Quite honestly the truth is Americans are rockstar sales people. They are not rock star geeks

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

Off shoring is the issue you are really talking about. Having H1Bs or US citizens managing the off shoring doesn’t really result in many more jobs for American students. It’s that entry level jobs are much cheaper off shore. And may be even more affected by AI.

You don’t work in tech, do you?

No it is both h1b and off shoring. And it is not just low level or ‘entry level’ jobs. Not even close. But AI in tech has been a huge thing for well over a decade now.

This is my point, it is a much bigger issue than people realize. H1b is part of the problem. There is no reason to invest in US workers to build the skills needed to supervise those off shore operations- which btw are not just entry level jobs anymore- when they can just hire an h1b who they can control more easily by virtue of the visa.

I did. I was a senior leader (think VP +) at a F100 company that had large teams in India and elsewhere.

I find it interesting that you don’t think h1b is mostly a farce. Did your offshore teams do only support work or did they eventually own whole products or systems?

Whole products. All build was done off shore. Yes we had some H1Bs but they were smart folk who clawed their way up to upper tiers of management - my teams did not have H1B sweatshops but I know that is common in some spaces. Less than you might think. I think AI is going to be a far larger threat to India than the US - those off shored capabilities are what is immediately replaceable by AI.

The reason we had the off shore teams was simple. You could get solid engineering done at a fraction of the cost by people who were willing to work v hard. Were they “better” than a UMD or Va Tech graduate? Maybe not. But they were way cheaper. And they had the scale of numbers needed. It’s hard to build such a team in the US.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.

Tell me you don't work in private sector tech without telling me you don't work in private sector tech.

Technically it is private sector, government contracting.

The worst of both worlds really, all the regulations and bad salaries.

Security?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

Off shoring is the issue you are really talking about. Having H1Bs or US citizens managing the off shoring doesn’t really result in many more jobs for American students. It’s that entry level jobs are much cheaper off shore. And may be even more affected by AI.

You don’t work in tech, do you?

No it is both h1b and off shoring. And it is not just low level or ‘entry level’ jobs. Not even close. But AI in tech has been a huge thing for well over a decade now.

This is my point, it is a much bigger issue than people realize. H1b is part of the problem. There is no reason to invest in US workers to build the skills needed to supervise those off shore operations- which btw are not just entry level jobs anymore- when they can just hire an h1b who they can control more easily by virtue of the visa.

I did. I was a senior leader (think VP +) at a F100 company that had large teams in India and elsewhere.

I find it interesting that you don’t think h1b is mostly a farce. Did your offshore teams do only support work or did they eventually own whole products or systems?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. I used to work for a software company that hired Southeast Asians through H1B mills. It's not that no Americans could do QA or whatever -- it's that the H1Bs would do it at half the price. They were nice people, but not brain trusts with unique training or skills.

Exactly. This whole ‘well we have to hire them bc of their special skills’ is nonsense. Total nonsense.

I think average people think it’s a little slice of IT support or customer service, but it is almost all of the tech operations - which are layered and complicated- with the US based workers- often h1b- as vendor managers.

There is this entire huge shadow workforce abroad.

Then MAGA should boycott Amazon. And Walmart. And Oracle. And Google. And Meta.

Ya know, the oligarchs.

Sigh, tired of splaining it to ya. There are precious few options for reducing H-1B or at least improving the way it works that aren't named Trump. Vance is on the horizon. Vance made his position clear.

The tech companies are a recent thing they know Trump has them over a barrel, because the Democratic platform collapsed.

Oh, sweet summer child. You seriously believe Vance is not lying through his teeth to get suckers like you to vote for him. (He literally told the world his claim that Haitians were eating cats and dogs was solely for political expediency!)

He is OWNED by Thiel. So, he will do as Thiel says, which is...support those oligarchs.

My point stands, you poor fool.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.

Tell me you don't work in private sector tech without telling me you don't work in private sector tech.

This this this. If there’s one h1b here, they’re likely overseeing dozens abroad. And it’s not just a customer service center in Bangalore. It is now much more sophisticated work. It scares me and it feels so unfair. We moved manufacturing overseas and told our citizens they needed to be highly skilled and modern. People did that, and now that work is given to non Americans. And I don’t think people see how prevalent it is because most people don’t think about technology all that much, and don’t realize how complicated the infrastructure and systems now are. There is so much work involved and most of it isn’t done by Americans

Vance! Vance! Vance!

https://www.newsweek.com/jd-vance-issues-h-1b-visa-update-11832766

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

Off shoring is the issue you are really talking about. Having H1Bs or US citizens managing the off shoring doesn’t really result in many more jobs for American students. It’s that entry level jobs are much cheaper off shore. And may be even more affected by AI.

You don’t work in tech, do you?

No it is both h1b and off shoring. And it is not just low level or ‘entry level’ jobs. Not even close. But AI in tech has been a huge thing for well over a decade now.

This is my point, it is a much bigger issue than people realize. H1b is part of the problem. There is no reason to invest in US workers to build the skills needed to supervise those off shore operations- which btw are not just entry level jobs anymore- when they can just hire an h1b who they can control more easily by virtue of the visa.

I did. I was a senior leader (think VP +) at a F100 company that had large teams in India and elsewhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.

Tell me you don't work in private sector tech without telling me you don't work in private sector tech.

Technically it is private sector, government contracting.

The worst of both worlds really, all the regulations and bad salaries.

Anonymous wrote:None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.

Tell me you don't work in private sector tech without telling me you don't work in private sector tech.

I stated this in another thread...

I have worked for silicon valley tech companies for 20 years.

During the tech boom in the early 90s, it was hard for tech companies to find skill workers. They were desperate, and that's when h1s really started to growin SV. H1 workers were paid equal to American workers for the same skillset. I know of one who came from Europe and was the highest paid worker I came across in our field.

Fast forward several years, and countries that did not have a sizeable workforce like Poland, India, the Philippines, now do have a good sized educated workforce, and their cost of living is waaay cheaper than here.

Why wouldn't companies be attracted to offshoring? They get "good enough" workers for lower pay.

While there are some very talented H1 workers here, the majority that I have worked with aren't that talented, and I would say some have been very average to below average. But, they are willing to work for less than an American worker, and they are tied to the company or else they lose their visa. So, again, why wouldn't this be attractive to companies.

Dems are ignorant, and listen to the execs about how they can't find American workers to fill the jobs. But, Rs are insidious because they may know what's happening, but Trump will make sure that the thousands of H1s that Amazon and Oracle have applied for (even as they have laid off thousands) get approved.

I don't blame the visa workers. I blame greedy corporations and the politicians (Trump) who are financed by these execs (Ellison and Bezos).

FWIW, my kid is a CS major.

None of the arguments for H-1B seem to land.

A) It's good for the economy growth etc. Workers don't care about some macro effect that enriches people that are already rich, when they are experiencing direct impacts like unemployment.

B) They'll just offshore it. Sounds like they are creating an alternate economy that we'll not be participating in. Be my guest and leave. They won't hire me here so I'm fine with them leaving.

C) The threat of offshoring is over stated. These other countries have there own rules and regulations, for example different holidays and what not. Furthermore, these companies depend on our infrastructure more than they acknowledge. Who is going to come to the US to get trained just to go back to there home country and work for those wages.

D) The premium for indentured servitude just isn't there. When companies operate in the employees home countries, changing jobs is easier. The companies just don't have the same leverage.

In essence the H-1b program is a wage subsidization program where employees exchange wages for Visas and green cards. Remove that benefit and you no longer have a loyal compliant and well trained workforce.