I fully concur that all of the examples that you mentioned are all excellent examples of betrayal in a marriage.

But in my opinion - - - cheating on your spouse is the ultimate betrayal because it is harder to redeem yourself after having sex with another person.

This is why it's a good idea to participate in pre marital counseling so if there's a mismatch in the fundamentals you find out before hand.

A lot of people on DCUM think cheating is the worst betrayal and some think it is the only betrayal. I think there are more ways to betray a spouse and I'm not sure cheating it the worst. Physical abuse seems worse to me. There are also many kinds of emotional abuse and neglect. How many divorced people say they were treated like strangers in their own house? That's also a major type of betrayal.

According to John Gottman, the Four Horsemen of bad marital communication are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. He says these are better predictors of divorce than cheating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

At least they divorced first. There was a couple in our neighborhood where the man was also adamantly against having kids while his wife reluctantly accepted it. Lo and behold, he started an affair with his administrative assistant when he was 45 and she was 24. Pregnant within 3 months and the wife was kicked to the curb at age 43.

Another bullet dodged. Once a cheater, always a cheater, and his new "partner" is going to be his co-parent for life. Ex-wife got hurt, understandably, but she also got lucky to be rid of a jerk without the lifelong connection of a shared kid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

Of course she had a meltdown. What a slap in the face!!

He did not want to have kids with her. He may have thought he didn't want kids at all. But he just didn't want to have kids with her. We see this all the time. Men who never want to get married [to you] or have kids [with you].

Yeah, but it's a whole decision to have a meltdown over a "man" like that instead of seeing the dodged bullet for what it really is. Accept that people don't live up to your expectations and move on. Rejection is protection in these situations. Bro with the twins isn't happy, nor will his new wife be.

If the person you're with isn't meeting your needs, leave. It's a disappointment, not a betrayal. Staying where you're unhappy is you betraying yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like people here are saying that if these things happen to you, it sucks and you just have to suck it up or else leave the marriage. But isn't that even worse for the other spouse? They aren't asking for a divorce. They just don't want to have to work to keep a roof over their head. Or they want to have 3-somes instead of having conventional sex with their spouse, or they just want to have a DINK lifestyle while their spouse pines for a baby. Why isn't the onus on them to repress their "urge" just like it is on a spouse with a dead bedroom to not have a ONS with someone they'll never see again?

Of course the onus is on both partners to "repress their urge" of whatever is damaging the marriage. The original point is that not everything that is damaging to a marriage is "a betrayal" the way that cheating is "a betrayal" to most people. It is possible to have bad things happen in a marriage that are not cheating. Many of them are very painful, but many posters here whose partners have cheated on them are not willing to allow that any other kind of pain is on that level. It's a function of their trauma, but it definitely functions to minimize the trauma of other people.

The issue with the "onus" argument is that the only response that the wronged spouse has is to leave. If your husband decides he doesn't want kids after 5 years, that is probably traumatic on the same level of your husband deciding he wants to sleep with other women after 5 years, but your only recourse is to leave. You can't force him to have kids because he said he wanted them in the past. All you can do is be wronged and move on. People with betrayal wounds like this really crave some kind of restitution or atonement or for it to just work out the way they wanted, and that's just not always possible.

There are a lot of things that can change against you in a marriage where your only recourse is to leave. Sending all your money home to your parents and falling short at home, turning your spouse into a golf widow, unilateral spending, being underemployed, not helping out around the house in an equitable way. Thank goodness for no fault divorce.

AMEN!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

At least they divorced first. There was a couple in our neighborhood where the man was also adamantly against having kids while his wife reluctantly accepted it. Lo and behold, he started an affair with his administrative assistant when he was 45 and she was 24. Pregnant within 3 months and the wife was kicked to the curb at age 43.

Women shouldn't marry a man who says he doesn't want kids! I hope he was a high earner and your friend got a good settlement, including alimony.

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

At least they divorced first. There was a couple in our neighborhood where the man was also adamantly against having kids while his wife reluctantly accepted it. Lo and behold, he started an affair with his administrative assistant when he was 45 and she was 24. Pregnant within 3 months and the wife was kicked to the curb at age 43.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like people here are saying that if these things happen to you, it sucks and you just have to suck it up or else leave the marriage. But isn't that even worse for the other spouse? They aren't asking for a divorce. They just don't want to have to work to keep a roof over their head. Or they want to have 3-somes instead of having conventional sex with their spouse, or they just want to have a DINK lifestyle while their spouse pines for a baby. Why isn't the onus on them to repress their "urge" just like it is on a spouse with a dead bedroom to not have a ONS with someone they'll never see again?

Of course the onus is on both partners to "repress their urge" of whatever is damaging the marriage. The original point is that not everything that is damaging to a marriage is "a betrayal" the way that cheating is "a betrayal" to most people. It is possible to have bad things happen in a marriage that are not cheating. Many of them are very painful, but many posters here whose partners have cheated on them are not willing to allow that any other kind of pain is on that level. It's a function of their trauma, but it definitely functions to minimize the trauma of other people.

The issue with the "onus" argument is that the only response that the wronged spouse has is to leave. If your husband decides he doesn't want kids after 5 years, that is probably traumatic on the same level of your husband deciding he wants to sleep with other women after 5 years, but your only recourse is to leave. You can't force him to have kids because he said he wanted them in the past. All you can do is be wronged and move on. People with betrayal wounds like this really crave some kind of restitution or atonement or for it to just work out the way they wanted, and that's just not always possible.

There are a lot of things that can change against you in a marriage where your only recourse is to leave. Sending all your money home to your parents and falling short at home, turning your spouse into a golf widow, unilateral spending, being underemployed, not helping out around the house in an equitable way. Thank goodness for no fault divorce.

Wow! This is really insightful. Thanks so much.

"Of course the onus is on both partners to "repress their urge" of whatever is damaging the marriage. The original point is that not everything that is damaging to a marriage is "a betrayal" the way that cheating is "a betrayal" to most people. It is possible to have bad things happen in a marriage that are not cheating. Many of them are very painful, but many posters here whose partners have cheated on them are not willing to allow that any other kind of pain is on that level. It's a function of their trauma, but it definitely functions to minimize the trauma of other people.

The issue with the "onus" argument is that the only response that the wronged spouse has is to leave. If your husband decides he doesn't want kids after 5 years, that is probably traumatic on the same level of your husband deciding he wants to sleep with other women after 5 years, but your only recourse is to leave. You can't force him to have kids because he said he wanted them in the past. All you can do is be wronged and move on. People with betrayal wounds like this really crave some kind of restitution or atonement or for it to just work out the way they wanted, and that's just not always possible."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

Of course she had a meltdown. What a slap in the face!!

He did not want to have kids with her. He may have thought he didn't want kids at all. But he just didn't want to have kids with her. We see this all the time. Men who never want to get married [to you] or have kids [with you].

Yep. I've lost count of how many times I've heard of this happening

Not nearly as many times as “why in the world would you ever have kids with them?!?!”

God bless those who realize before it’s too late.

Not respecting sports superstitions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But what about someone who decides they don't want to have kids after all, five years into the marriage?

This happened to my wife's best friend from childhood. She married her college bf at 26. At 31, he said he didn't ever want kids, They did therapy for a year and then ultimately divorced when she was 34.

Guy met a new woman in her mid 20s and had twin daughters with her in two years. Wife's friend had complete meltdown that last a couple years.

Of course she had a meltdown. What a slap in the face!!

He did not want to have kids with her. He may have thought he didn't want kids at all. But he just didn't want to have kids with her. We see this all the time. Men who never want to get married [to you] or have kids [with you].

Yep. I've lost count of how many times I've heard of this happening

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like people here are saying that if these things happen to you, it sucks and you just have to suck it up or else leave the marriage. But isn't that even worse for the other spouse? They aren't asking for a divorce. They just don't want to have to work to keep a roof over their head. Or they want to have 3-somes instead of having conventional sex with their spouse, or they just want to have a DINK lifestyle while their spouse pines for a baby. Why isn't the onus on them to repress their "urge" just like it is on a spouse with a dead bedroom to not have a ONS with someone they'll never see again?

Of course the onus is on both partners to "repress their urge" of whatever is damaging the marriage. The original point is that not everything that is damaging to a marriage is "a betrayal" the way that cheating is "a betrayal" to most people. It is possible to have bad things happen in a marriage that are not cheating. Many of them are very painful, but many posters here whose partners have cheated on them are not willing to allow that any other kind of pain is on that level. It's a function of their trauma, but it definitely functions to minimize the trauma of other people.

The issue with the "onus" argument is that the only response that the wronged spouse has is to leave. If your husband decides he doesn't want kids after 5 years, that is probably traumatic on the same level of your husband deciding he wants to sleep with other women after 5 years, but your only recourse is to leave. You can't force him to have kids because he said he wanted them in the past. All you can do is be wronged and move on. People with betrayal wounds like this really crave some kind of restitution or atonement or for it to just work out the way they wanted, and that's just not always possible.

It sounds like people here are saying that if these things happen to you, it sucks and you just have to suck it up or else leave the marriage. But isn't that even worse for the other spouse? They aren't asking for a divorce. They just don't want to have to work to keep a roof over their head. Or they want to have 3-somes instead of having conventional sex with their spouse, or they just want to have a DINK lifestyle while their spouse pines for a baby. Why isn't the onus on them to repress their "urge" just like it is on a spouse with a dead bedroom to not have a ONS with someone they'll never see again?